Doug -
Pretending to be "one of the more sensitive members of the list", this
sounds a lot like "the only good Injun is a dead Injun"...
But that isn't what I want to take exception to... what I want to take
exception to is that you or I or anyone else gets to decide that
behaviours which offend us are somehow "less fit" than those we approve
of. The fitness function is what it is, not what we want it to be...
and there are many situations where what you and I would call incredibly
offensive or bad behaviour is actually in some sick (by our measure)
way, highly fit.
Or as a corollary, you and I don't get to decide what the "ideal
society" is and declare all "antisocial" (relative to that ideal) are
unfit and will be culled.
I would claim that some (all?) of the worst behaviours we know of are
the precise result of natural selection. Our corrupt politicians, our
paedophilic priests, violent gangs, etc *are* precisely what is being
selected for. Maybe a case can be made for the opposite
simultaneously... that kindness and altruism can also have a high
fitness (at least for the group, if not the individual)...
Darwinian selection works *through* extinctions... whatever is left
after the presumed "total extinction" of our species will be what was
selected for. Maybe the meek will inherit the earth. Maybe our presumed
imminent anthropogenic extinction event will remove all vertebrate life
or maybe just the meanest, most aggressive peoples of the earth (those
with nuclear/biological/chemical weapons)?
I contend it is a fanciful understanding of Darwinian Evolution to
presume that it is going to cull what we find offensive or in fact
dangerous to our own interests. Someone who believes (in doxastic
terms, a peculiar or unstable reasoner?) that all drivers are out to get
them when they are on a motorcycle (which has a high survival fitness
while riding a motorcycle, but is nevertheless not correct) might also
apply similar reasoning to natural evolution and fitness.
Your rhetoric is compelling to me *as* rhetoric... I *like* the idea
that gang members, prurient patriarchs and plutocratic politicians are
somehow less fit for survival in the current milieu than you and I and
all our present company... but that doesn't make it true.
It seems to me that our role as conscious beings capable of forming
societies is to not only form societies that meet our needs, but to
(eventually) come to understand the complex dynamics of societies well
enough to create and follow rules that not only *would seem to* lead to
the ideals we seek, but in fact, *actually* lead to them?
I think this is far from a solved problem, but many of us *are capable*
of recognizing that first order cause-effect rules isn't sufficient.
Forbid your priests to have sex while giving them absolute authority
over the spiritual lives of their flock and *some* will become sex
abusers... and in attempting to hide this consequence we end up
institutionalizing it. Remove conventional social structures and
opportunities for self esteem and material success from children and
some will create their own through what we call "gang activity". Let
that go on for a generation or two and it will become endemic to our
various socioeconomic landscapes (urban, suburban, rural, poor, middle
class, rich, black, brown, yellow, red, white). Et cetera. Ad Nauseum.
Illegimatus non Carborundum. Semper Fi.
- Steve
PS... I think I have got to take my thumb off this transmit switch!
Still, irrespective of whomever coined that old "fittest" rubric, dead
gang members are far more productive members of society than live
ones, I suspect.
On Sep 26, 2012 9:48 PM, "Nicholas Thompson"
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Darwinism only says that the least prolific will be eliminated.
It says nothing about degeneracy, unless, of course profligacy is
defined as "advanced." Spencer was the social Darwinist, not
Darwin. In fact, it was SPENCER, who coined "the survival of the
fittest", I believe.
N
*From:*[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
[mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2012 9:03 PM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] faith
Well, speaking from my own (apparent) semi-unique perspective:
Darwin's proposition of "Survival of the Fittest" would seem to
scream out for the elimination of degenerate components of society
which threaten to bring the entire species to total extinction.
And, being an engineer, I cannot but cheer and encourage any
activity that speeds the destruction of those destructive elements
of society. Like gang conflicts, for example. And religion, for
another. Not that there is much difference, really.
--Doug
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Roger Critchlow <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Steve Smith <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Tory -
Why is the idea of two differing but synergistic approaches so
challenging to so many on this list? Or are you arguing for
the fun of the game?
I'm pretty sure both the Monkey and the Weasel are in it for the
endorphins released.
I don't think I'm talking about two differing approaches.
Some beliefs are so common that no one even thinks about them.
Many people deny that they're beliefs at all. Other beliefs
extend and explain and modify the common ones in different ways.
But I say we're all believers on this bus, some are just more
conscious of it.
-- rec --
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Doug Roberts
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
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505-670-8195 <tel:505-670-8195> - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
