" Science really doesn't think in terms of causes."
Really, Russ? That's quite a sweeper, isn't it? Nick From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 4:45 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] beyond reductionism twice It seems strange to me that Kauffman would focus on cause. (I'll admit that I got that from just looking at the start of the paper. Perhaps he goes in a different direction.) Science really doesn't think in terms of causes. As I understand it science thinks in terms of forces, particles, etc., and equations that relate them, but not causes. This is especially noticeable when considering that the equations work forwards and backwards. If one wants to think in terms of a "forward" (in time) cause that implies a parallel "backward" (in time) cause, which makes the whole cause notion much less useful. Steve, you mentioned Lamarkian evolution. I'd be very interested to find out more about some of your daughter's examples. -- Russ Abbott _____________________________________________ Professor, Computer Science California State University, Los Angeles My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688 Google voice: 747-999-5105 Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/ vita: <http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/> sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ CS Wiki <http://cs.calstatela.edu/wiki/> and the courses I teach _____________________________________________ On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: Gary/Pamela/(Stephen, Carl, Eric, ...) - I know several (many?) on this list know Stu better than I... so I apologize if I sounded overly critical. I prefer Pamela's description of him being *careless* with references as opposed to my own use of the *honest*. I also admit that I do not know if he sees himself as a rock-star... that is perhaps the default category I put people in who are simultaneously *good*, *self-possessed* and *charismatic*. I actually *like* most rock stars (within reason) even if I might not care for their music. As an aside... does anyone remember Chris Langton appearing in Rolling Stone (CA 1990?)... I searched their archives and did not find any references (nor on the internet at large?). I remember the article including a sexed-up spread of him in front of a Connection Machine? I suppose I could be hallucinating or have come from an alternate history? I also smiled at your term "demigod" as I often use "Titans" to describe the pantheon of my wife's sibling group... she is oldest of 8 *mostly* high functioning, *very* charismatic, *definitely* self-possessed siblings. They all revered their father who was a humble but charismatic physics professor. None of them took up science per se, though one has a PhD in psychology. I would not use *rock star* to describe any of their self-image, though there is one who insists he *is* Elvis... and sometimes we are tempted to believe him. There are definitely characters right out of Greek, Roman, Norse, even Hindu mythology in her family... My wife is Kali *and* Loki rolled into one I think. I have always been inspired by Kauffman's ideas as best I could understand them, which has been highly variable, depending on the circumstance. This says more about me than about Stu. I read his lecture notes in the late-nineties... the ones which ultimately became the core of _Investigations_ (or so it seemed to me). I had read _OofO_ and _At Home in the Universe_ previously. It may have been coincidence or something stronger like kismet that I read Investigations interleaved with my reading of Christopher Alexander's (Pattern Language fame) _Notes on the Synthesis of Form_ with D'Arcy Thompson's _On Growth and Form_ as backup reference. I was traveling lightly in New Zealand at the time with none of my usual distractions nagging me. It was a month of deep thought informed by Alexander and Kauffman equally. My nature is to be guarded around people with significant charisma (and me married into aforementioned pantheon!). I appreciate the need for and the value of the persuasive and the self-confident, even in the realm of science where ideas *by definition* must stand on their own. There is value for those who can bring us to *want* to believe enough to put in the hard work to believe things on their own merits. Unfortunately that might be the dividing line between science and Science(tm). I suppose I mistrust those who appear to be trying to corner the franchise on Science(tm) in their neighborhood. Nevertheless, I am *more* interested in Kauffman's ideas here and hope that we will discuss them a bit? - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com Image removed by sender.Image removed by sender.
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