Doug,
I want to participate in your anti-discussion discussion, but I cannot master the facebook link. Each time I click on it it invites me to create a gmail account (which I already have, but do not use). It won't let me link to the old account. So, I start another one. And then, somehow, I never get to the link you are offering me. So I do it again, and accumulate another gmail account. I am up to about six, now, and getting weary. So, unless you can use words (rather than links), I will have to watch from afar. God knows, that probably wouldn't be a bad thing. Nick From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:16 AM To: Stephen Guerin; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the second one is under control, so why delay my response. Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the referenced paper, certainly. Rather our little group's pronounced tendency to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and (dare I say it?) philosophical meanings of words. Like, say, just to pick a random sample: "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal", "entropic", and "forces". And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions cosmology as one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to describe. Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas, I wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very clearly, which is that nobody has even the slightest glimmer of understanding of our true cosmological origins. Even the events after that instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe expanded from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?) are only sparsely understood. Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the question is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang. But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we? Deeply, and philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of debating (deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say "emergence" again, let's take the discussion in a new direction. Sorry for the Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a NewScientist paywall. The article nicely addresses my thoughts on that other question you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=501821756549668 <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=501821756549668&set=a.4778929022758 87.114170.334816523250193&type=1&theater> &set=a.477892902275887.114170.334816523250193&type=1&theater --TrollBoi On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Stephen Guerin <[email protected]> wrote: Ok Troll-Boy, I'll bite. Here's the paper referenced in the phys.org post: http://www.alexwg.org/publications/PhysRevLett_110-168702.pdf Are these concepts so foreign that you hope to watch a thread thrash on the semantics and meanings of this theoretical worldview? Is there something in Hewitt's paper that strikes you as ridiculous, hogwosh or complexity babble? The ideas in the paper restate what is obvious to many of the practitioners on this list. Namely that structure formation and origin of life may well be best understood as nature's response to imposed non-equilibrium gradients. To many this is a core idea of Complexity. This mechanism has been linked as a causal mechanism for the emergence of autonomous intelligent emergent behavior since (1980, Kugler, Kelso and Turvey <http://web.haskins.yale.edu/Reprints/HL0297.pdf> ), (2000 Kauffman <http://www.amazon.com/Investigations-Stuart-A-Kauffman/dp/0195121058/ref=sr _1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1366685204&sr=8-2&keywords=investigations> ), (2005 Jun and Hubler <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC545530/> and 2011 Hubler et al <http://icmt.illinois.edu/workshops/fluctuations2011/Talks/Hubler_Alfred_ICM T_May_2011.pdf> ) and (2007 Morowitz and Smith <http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cplx.20191/abstract> ) among others. I haven't actually seen the software "entropica" referenced in the paper and the claims may be a little over stated but the core ideas you quote "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces" are not new and strike me as matter of fact. These same ideas have thrashed on the list almost exactly 10 years ago: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.region.new-mexico.santa-fe.friam/256 Doug, where do you think intelligent behavior (ie life) comes from? Do you have a view? a pet theory? too busy? --- -. . ..-. .. ... .... - .-- --- ..-. .. ... .... [email protected] 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505 office: (505) 995-0206 <tel:%28505%29%20995-0206> tollfree: (888) 414-3855 <tel:%28888%29%20414-3855> mobile: (505) 577-5828 <tel:%28505%29%20577-5828> fax: (505) 819-5952 <tel:%28505%29%20819-5952> tw: @redfishgroup skype: redfishgroup gvoice: (505) 216-6226 <tel:%28505%29%20216-6226> redfish.com <http://redfish.com/> | simtable.com <http://simtable.com/> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Douglas Roberts <[email protected]> wrote: http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.htm l It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces". --Doug -- Doug Roberts [email protected] <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-672-8213 - Mobile ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Doug Roberts [email protected] <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-672-8213 - Mobile
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