Hi Frank, Thanks for putting your oar in.
How is your question different from the following question? I am looking at a Cup with an inscription. When you [finally] come to visit me in Massachusetts, I will show you the inscription on the cup. It will be the same cup. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 9:50 PM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] BBC News - Ant colony 'personalities' shaped by environment Nick, Re: Your cup. I am thinking of a card. Can you tell me what it is? I will ask you again when you are present in Santa Fe. It will be the same card. This is just to explain the problem I have with your claims about whether one has private access to one's mind. Frank Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505 [email protected] [email protected] Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 7:08 PM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] BBC News - Ant colony 'personalities' shaped by environment John, Ok. I am in. But we have to go slowly, because, as somebody famously said, "In philosophy, if you are not moving slowly, you aren't moving." Not clear where to start. I don't want to try to defend my "insight" that our vernacular understanding of consciousness arises not because it is accurate but because it makes society possible. I will say in its defense only that the McNauton Rule which forms the basis for our notion of legal responsibility, states that I can only be considered criminally responsible If I know the nature and quality of my own acts. This phrase, "knowing nature and quality of one's acts" sounds a heckuva lot like a definition of [self] consciousness to me. I thought we perhaps could start with unpacking "interior", since it appears in both of your messages ("access"). What does it mean to say that my thoughts are "inside" me. It ought to mean, if we play the language game of "inside" by the rules, that there is some sort of container that my thoughts are enclosed within. The use of the word, "access", would seem to suggest that I have ways of getting at the insides of the "box" to "see" my thoughts that you do not have. Perhaps the box is a 5-sided box, and it's open side faces me, so I can see inside and you cannot? If that is how the metaphor works, then you should be able to come around to my side of the box and look in examine its contents with me. Or, if my access is provided by a key, you should be able to use that key to get inside my box. In other words, there should be some set of conditions under which you can see exactly what I see. Since this entailment of the box metaphor undermines the essential privacy of mind, I assume that you would rule it out by, say, asserting that only I have the key to my box, and I cannot loan it to you. But now we encounter another problem. I think you would agree that you do have some access to the inside of my box, beyond the access that I might provide you by telling you what is inside it. Certainly, if I wrote you now the words, "I really have no interest in issues in the philosophy of mind," you would have every reason to assert that I had misrepresented the contents of my box to you. So, to make the metaphor work, we would have to imagine that, perhaps it's sides are not entirely opaque, or not opaque all the time. Perhaps they are sometimes translucent? How about a different metaphor altogether? How about the metaphor of "point of view"? My consciousness is just that what is seen from the point of view on the world from where I stand. It is mine only in the sense that it is indexed to me, not in the sense that I own it or that it is in me. For example, there is a cup on my desk whose inscription is turned toward me so that if you were sitting across my desk from me right now, you would not "have access to it". The inscription is, "ONLY MUGS PAY POLL TAX." I am conscious of it in the sense that my behavior points to it. From your point of view, my consciousness is just all that my behavior designates. When your behavior designates the relations between me and some of the objects in your environment, you become conscious of what I am conscious. When my behavior designates those same relations, I become self-conscious. I think "self-consciousness is what we are principally arguing about, here. I hope this answer is somewhat satisfying. Thanks for running me around the track. I am trying to write some on this subject this summer. I really need the exercise. Best, Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Kennison Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 12:52 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] BBC News - Ant colony 'personalities' shaped by environment Hi Nick, I certainly don't think of what you said as "rude" --in fact I asked you to tell what errors you might see in what I said. And in any case, I am very glad to agree that we are old friends and can, if necessary, forgive what might appear as rudeness. I am willing to accept your conclusion that the words "inner subjective life" are not really very useful and do no contribute much to my idea of what consciousness is. I don't think I claimed that they are either of these things. I am having difficulty seeing the connection between these words and a quasi-legal understanding that I and only I get to speak for myself. I guess I would say that my sense of what my consciousness is all about will be different from yours because I have access to my thoughts and vague feelings etc. that differs from the kind of access you have. It's okay with me if you speak for myself (so to speak) --and I imagine you will, perhaps over the previous sentence. I invite and will (I think) welcome your analysis. --John ________________________________________ From: Friam [[email protected]] on behalf of Nick Thompson [[email protected]] Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 11:38 AM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Cc: James Laird Subject: Re: [FRIAM] BBC News - Ant colony 'personalities' shaped by environment Hi, John, Nothing like a sober, quiet, good question to knock an old warrior off his high horse. Ok. Now that I am standing on the ground ... First, let us stipulate, we are talking about self-consciousness, here, ... something beyond sentience, right? If so, then I think your question is a wonderful example of a "mystery", like we talked about yesterday. A mystery is a state of pleasurable confusion generated by using words outside their realm of usefulness. So, I would predict that if we sat down and unpacked "inner", "subjective", and "life" we would discover that these words have really nothing to contribute beyond the assertion that "I, and only I, get to speak for me." In other words, under your use of "consciousness", it is really a quasi-legal understanding central to human interaction that, in the absence of a legal certification of incompetence, our assertions about our own needs, wants, thoughts, etc., are to be taken as definitive. So, for instance, what I just said -- that your view of consciousness is not quite what you think it is -- would be (may be) seen as RUDE, in polite society, because, on your own understanding of consciousness, you and only you get to say what you think it is. Because we have been friends for more than 40 years, I hoping you will let that rudeness pass. On my account, an entity is conscious of something when it acts with respect to it, and SELF-conscious, when it acts with reference to itself. On that account, a simple thermostat is clearly conscious, but not self-conscious. A more complicated thermostat, which calibrates its own sensitivity (which most modern thermostats do), would probably have to be admitted as self-conscious. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Kennison Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 11:00 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] BBC News - Ant colony 'personalities' shaped by environment Nick, I guess my criterion for consciousness would be something like "has an inner subjective life". It's not something that I can measure and it has the problem of circularity --if you ask me what I mean by an "inner subjective life" I will soon be making a circular definition. I am willing to concede that I don't have a suitable definition for a scientific study of consciousness. Still the question of whether a thermostat has consciousness seems meaningful to me. (I don't have an answer --other than "I doubt it". ) Perhaps, I am making some kind of error. If so, could you explain what my mistake is. --John ________________________________________ From: Friam [[email protected]] on behalf of Nick Thompson [[email protected]] Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 10:20 AM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] BBC News - Ant colony 'personalities' shaped by environment So, I looked up David Chalmers . Yeh, I know: I shouldn't have HAD to look up David Chalmers. Here from Philosophy Index A potential problem with this speculation, which Chalmers acknowledges, is that it may imply the consciousness of things that we would not normally consider to have consciousness at all. For instance, Chalmers wonders if this means that a thermostat may have some experiential properties, even if they are especially dull. He does not commit to the notion that they do, but the possibility remains in the more speculative area of his thought. This is one of those "TED" insights, to which the only rational response is, "Duh!" Why exactly is that a problem? What exactly would it have meant to say that "humans are conscious" if it were not possible to discover that (1) things other than humans are conscious and/or that humans are not, in fact, conscious. Either we have a criterion for consciousness or we don't; once we have a criterion, we either apply it rigorously or . we are dishonest. It's really quite simple, actually. N Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 9:45 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] BBC News - Ant colony 'personalities' shaped by environment Quick, somebody call David Chalmers! On Aug 15, 2014, at 9:25 AM, Eric Charles wrote: Weird that they want to call it "personality" instead of more simply saying that ant colonies seem to adapt to their local environment. Of course, the flashiness of the claim is the only reason it is being covered on the BBC, so I guess it isn't that weird after all. ----------- Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. Lab Manager Center for Teaching, Research, and Learning American University, Hurst Hall Room 203A 4400 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W. Washington, DC 20016 phone: (202) 885-3867 fax: (202) 885-1190 email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Gillian Densmore <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: A few swarm inteligence from the 90s described that. Scott Kelly's "Fast Cheap and Out of Controll" touched on that. In his case they knew ants (and often uncles) could pass around experience- and displayed something simillar to hummans sense of experience they didn't have a explination. Then again his forray into science was from the 90s. On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Tom Johnson <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: So who is going to integrate this into the sugar model? http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-28658268 =================================== Tom Johnson - Inst. for Analytic Journalism Santa Fe, NM [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. 505-473-9646<tel:505-473-9646> =================================== ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
