But Gary! How do you make that distinction ... the difference between the innocent useless and the harmful useless? I took a whack at that in the article I sent, but I never felt I nailed it.
Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 10:06 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! Well, you’re in good company here :-) Actually, I also distinguish between “the useful stuff” that we do and the less useful, but I suspect that both are necessary. We're complex creatures that become bored doing only the useful stuff, and our brains need for us to do “the fun stuff” too. Maybe it’s somehow like sleep, nothing obviously productive is occuring, but it appears to perform some necessary physiological functions (cleanup of waste products, other?) as well as leading to various conceptual leaps that don’t seem to come as much in conscious thought. Now, the *real* bullshit of constantly new stuff just to get us to buy it, I’m more dubious about that. Maybe in the same way that the arms race and SDI led us to create new useful stuff, creating endless new crap has some useful function. I don’t know. “Give us bread, but give us roses" On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Nick Thompson <[email protected]> wrote: > So's my wife! And I love her dearly! And after all, I made my living > studying the behavior of crows. I enjoy bull shit and bullshitters. > > But still, Gary, are you committed to the notion that there is no useful > distinction to be made between bullshit and productive labor? And is there > nothing queer about the idea that some people get to earn their living doing > bullshit, while others have to do productive labor? > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gary > Schiltz > Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 9:36 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! > > My god, it’s full of…. BULLSHIT! > > Well, making things and growing food are great, but it would be a lot less > interesting world if that’s all we did. Certainly Santa Fe would be. > > Gary [husband of an artist] > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Nick Thompson <[email protected]> > wrote: >> Dear Friammers, >> >> >> >> I am late to this conversation but it has just impinged on something >> I have been thinking about a LOT. I used to be sure that there was a >> firm distinction between productive labor and … to use the technical >> term … bullshit. Growing food and making automobile engines were >> examples of productive labor; designing this year’s fashions in >> automobiles and clothing, that was an example of bull shit. It truly >> disgusts me that the automobile industry designs a pretty good car >> every decade or so, and then, stops making them because, because, >> after all, there always must be something new. (Oh what has Subaru >> done the Forrester and Volvo to the Volvo Wagon? Once they comfortable >> boxes in which to carry people around. >> Now they both look like outsized running shoes with gun slits for windows. >> That’s the essence of bullshit. LL Beans had a pretty good winter coat a >> decade back; can’t get it any more. More bullshit. >> >> >> >> Now gambling and gaming in any form (e.g., investment banking) seem >> to me to lean pretty heavily on the side of bullshit. But I have >> begun to worry that, one of these days, I am going to wake up having >> realized in a dream that EVERYTHING is bullshit. Certainly that’s >> the direction that complexity thinking leads us. Or, at least, to >> the realization that because there is nowhere near enough productive >> labor to go around, most of us have to paid to do bullshit to keep us >> from doing real harm. Anyway, Penny and I published something about >> that >> 35 years back. Perhaps some of you like to look at it. It’s called, “A >> Utopian Perspective on Ecology and >> Development.” For all I know, you might its first readers! The authors >> would love to hear from you. >> >> >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology >> >> Clark University >> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >> >> >> >> From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Marcus >> Daniels >> Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 6:21 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! >> >> >> >> Arlo writes: >> >> >> >> “It is not some secret mystical human experience, nor does it have to >> be some weird pop-culture cult, but just another way to spend some free >> time.” >> >> >> >> I suppose the distinction I’m making is between open vs. closed or leading >> vs. following. With so much unknown in the world, why use hours of >> wakefulness to enumerate the states of a finite state machine? In what way >> is there anything to discover from a game? I appreciate there is a craft >> to making a storyline and a craft to in designing the graphics and >> physics engines, and of course the graphic arts in designing the visual >> appearance >> of characters. But I appreciate the story like I’d appreciate literature >> or art – I am not an expert in those things, and so I am not a participant – >> I am merely a consumer. On the technology side, I can acknowledge that >> gaming software is sometimes impressive. But why _bother_ writing it >> _except_ to sell it? Another way to ask the question is how is it more >> significant to be a gamer than, say, a reader of fiction or even a >> moviegoer? How is being a gamer a Thing? >> >> >> >> Marcus >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at >> cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
