Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

Thu, 12 Jan 2017 16:41:01 -0800 

Eric,

You make a good point about your concerns being orthogonal to mine.
To my point, though... one of the things that Trump /is/ doing to exacerbate my concern is to nominate folks (e.g. the senator from Alabama to AG) who have /vowed/ to promote further class marginalization, and have demonstrated that such is their propensity and commitment - by, for example, supporting the KKK. 

Grant


On 1/12/17 12:12 PM, Eric Charles wrote:

Grant, et al.,
I fully understand concern for the effect that electing Trump might have on the attitudes of the larger population. I have relatives who are, in fact, moving from rural areas, where discrimination was already noticeable, to Canada, in anticipation of increased discrimination (inspired by what, to them, Trump's victory represents). However, I see that as conceptually distinct from concern over what Trump himself might do. They are moving due to concerns about their local neighbors, not about what might happen in the White House or in Trump Towers, and not because they are afraid of Trump being kept in proximity to the football.
As for the VP and the cabinet deciding to try to ouster him, that seems unlikely, unless he becomes considerably more erratic. The "out" provided by the 25th amendment is clearly intended for someone who becomes unstable in office. The law requires people the president put in place to declare that they no longer have faith in him, which implies a fundamental change in the character of the person whose agenda they agreed to serve.
The amendment is not intended to remove a narcissistic person, who was such when elected, and is still such in office. If it becomes clear that he is fundamentally unfit for office, they will turn against him, but "unfit" by their standards will mean that he consistently disrupts the ability of the party to get things done, not merely that he gives erratic press conferences and tweets in the middle of the night. As far as general decorum, recall that "whip it out like LBJ" is a perfectly valid expression. As far as mental incompetence, recall that Regan was pretty far gone by the end of his time, and the people around him kept things running fairly well. So long as the party can keep things running fairly well despite Trump's flaws, there won't be a sufficient number of people willing to sign.
P.S. Out of curiosity, does anyone else know someone actually moving as a result of the election? 








-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician
U.S. Marine Corps
On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Grant Holland <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: 

    Eric,

    It looks to me like you are missing what people like myself and
    Jochen are very afraid of - the extreme marginalization of certain
    classes of people versus other classes of people. And when I say
    "extreme", I mean extreme.

    I grew up in the American South in the 1950s where lynchings of a
    certain class of people still occurred. That culture strictly
    forbade the pursuit of social and economic opportunity for that
    class, at the threat of beatings and death. And it was justified
    via an appeal to Christianity! For example, my mother (I'm a white
    guy) took over my Sunday school class in order to teach us (11
    year old kids) that racism is Biblically justified. (She failed of
    course in her attempt at demonstrating that.)

    So I know by experience that the danger of that kind of
    marginalization is real. (The propensity for a return to that
    world is alive and kicking even today in the deep South.) It is
    palpable and I recognize it in today's cultural and political
    manifestations.

    I know that many of my friends who voted for Trump either think
    that I am simply a sore Hillary lover (I'm not really a fan of
    hers), or that I'm senselessly paranoid. But I think my fears are
    real and even probable. I'm way beyond mere disagreement. (That's
    where I was in 2000 when W won.)

    And I do not think that Jochen's fears are unjustified. Listen to
    him. You don't have to agree, but listen. He comes from a place
    that is fresh with the experience, and the consequences, of the
    real life manifestations of these phenomena. It happened, and
    Jochen knows what the tracks of that animal look like.

    Thanks for listening to me!
    Grant


    On 1/12/17 6:07 AM, Eric Charles wrote:

    The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems
    more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on
    social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of
    like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk
    to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being
    chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other
    people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members
    of the press every day.

    Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming
    weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false
    charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become
    forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be
    blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we
    worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her
    family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest
    questions.

    Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would
    consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant,
    more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter
    protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from
    their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities,
    etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and
    hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give
    a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder
    what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech,
    which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to
    the actions of the other individuals mentioned.


    -----------
    Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
    Supervisory Survey Statistician
    U.S. Marine Corps

    On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <[email protected]
    <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

        Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who
        was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize
        the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near
        the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis
        were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named
        T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among
        the people.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen
        <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen>

        Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo
         (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died.
        In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are
        mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to
        resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten.

        It can also help to document the things that are unfolding,
        the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the
        injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor
        Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his
        diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the
        injustice that happened.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer
        <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer>

        -J.


        -------- Original message --------
        From: glen ☣ <[email protected]
        <mailto:[email protected]>>
        Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00)
        To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
        <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
        Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?


        But the question is what actions are guided by remote
        diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like
        that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he
        will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's
        not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and
        stigma won't really work on him.

        I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular
        type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may
        or may not do and choose actions based on their expected
        efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who
        willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or
        other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

        Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I
        think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and
his appointees express diametrically opposite positions. Focus on those fissures. At best, his administration will 
        shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the
        incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him,
        the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a
        late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

        On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
        > Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a
        narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for
        himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and
        you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser".
        There is no way how he can make the country great again. As
        Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of
        authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
        > Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a
        brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel
        you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are
        great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and
        there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness.
        Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages
        his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his
        image is destroyed. He and his brand have become
        undistinguishable.
        > Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has
        already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in
        marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do,
        build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in
        every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan
        nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would
        want such a future...
-- ☣ glen 

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