Steve,
A pacifist, when confronted with a person that physically coerces another, will only exercise non-violent, indirect, remedies to stop that. Yes? And typically, the state has exclusive use of violence, so if a state goes off the rails, there may not be any remedy without that some consensus. The possibility that an individual will violate the the law or behave in an `anti-social' way and "presume to know what their context and choices are better than they do" may be all that prevents the accumulation of power by dangerous individuals. It seems like you are equating violence with having the courage of ones' convictions. Marcus ________________________________ From: Friam <[email protected]> on behalf of Steven A Smith <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 4:45:10 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: [FRIAM] Pacifism: was Enlightened Self Interest: was Help for texas Marcus - I can only answer this for myself. To the extent I am pacifistic, and identify with pacifism as a principle, I will state my own position/experience: While I do value consequences, I value intentions yet more, there has been a lot of ambiguity and ambivalence in my life because of this duality. Personal Choice: For me, pacifism is a personal choice and it is about who I choose to be/come. I can offer advice and opinions to others about their own personal choices, about where their line between violence/non might be and what to do with it, but I don't presume to know what their context and choices are better than they do... to do so would be it's own form of violence. Vegetarianism: At 14 I chose not to eat any meat from any animal I did not kill or butcher myself. This made me a vegetarian as a matter of practice. I held that line for nearly 20 years. I am no longer a strict vegetarian, but am very sympathetic with the ideals of those who choose it on moral grounds, and even moreso those who choose vegan lifestyles. I may return there. I considered this my first significantly pacifistic decision in life. War: I chose (but was relieved of acting on it) to refuse military service to my country and was prepared to leave it and never return to it as I came of 'conscription age'. This was neither because I was a coward (though the reality of war WAS deeply threatening) nor because I believed the Vietnam War to be patently *wrong* (though there were plenty of indicators and I think time proved them correct for the most part). I simply did not want to become a killer, especially one who killed on the orders of others, or put himself in a situation of kill-or-be-killed for arbitrary reasons. War Profiteeting: I also *chose* to work at a nuclear weapons laboratory (eventually) in support of MAD and came close to working for the more conventional Military-Industrials, because I believed that "somebody has to have the big stick, it might as well be 'us' ". I also liked the pay, the benefits and the presumed prestige. But I never adopted a hawkish stance and took no more than passing *technical* pride in the products of my efforts, many of which were far from exclusively or even mainly military in application. The fall of The Wall/Soviet Union helped me understand that MAD may always have been truly unnecessary (ill conceived?) madness, and a few choice words of Wisdom by the Dali Lama soon after, about the nature of violence/non helped me understand all of that a little more. Some time supporting the National Intelligence effort helped me appreciate how slippery the slopes were and how much *I* didn't want to tread anywhere near that line of no return. Fortunately I ducked the "Edward Snowden" bullet, I saw plenty I didn't like, but nothing beyond the pale. Spare the Rod: I chose to raise my children without giving over to the "spare the rod, spoil the child" mentality handed down by my parent's generation and held by more than a few peers. I never struck nor threatened to strike my children, nor used abusive language toward them. I recognized that the violences I DID perpetrate (witholding of approval, of resources, timeout/grounding) were acknowledgements of my own failure to guide/support them well enough and/or a failure in my own patience. As far as I know, this worked out very well with them. They might tell their intimates (or therapists) otherwise. Intervention: I still have strong opinions about others' behaviour and the consequences of that behaviour and have been known to actively intervene when I felt inaction would allow significant harm to occur. These actions are never easy to come to, to execute, nor to be smug about afterwards. The few times I have taken significant interventive action (physically, verbally, legally, economically) were pivotal to my evolving character and I doubt I will ever feel with certainty that "I did the right thing". There is nothing I feel acute regret about, but my judgement remains open on them. I think that ambiguity/ambivalence is key to my continued pacifism. Capital Punishment: Your point about capital punishment is well taken and I align with it for the most part. I'm not willing to be a party to state-sponsored vengeance. I accept that individuals DO take vengeance and accept that as part of "the human condition" and can imagine my own participation. I accept that sometimes organizations (e.g. states) choose practical over ideological decisions (capital punishment as a way to avoid the expense and inconvenience of lifetime incarceration) but seek other alternatives. War Again: Similarly, I don't like nor endorse the violence of war but accept that sometimes it is a point that groups arrive at, but I will not be party to the "vengeance" part of it. Vilifying the enemy only makes war "easier", it doesn't make it "better". True "self defense" is a practical admission of failure of all other means, and nothing to be proud of, merely to be exercised as effectively, thoughtfully and compassionately as possible. Sadly I find very little of this in those who promote the death penalty nor war. I hope there are truly "compassionate warriors" and suspect that some of my friends who have "been there" may have a significant component of that in them, it is not something easy for them to talk about and I respect that. Peace Out Man... - Steve
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