Frank confirms. Here is a conversation between Nick and me that occurred at least ten years ago:
N. Hunger is eating or food-seeking behavior. F. No, hunger is what I feel when I'm hungry. Note:. Nick feels(!) that circularity is a Mortal Sin. ----------------------------------- Frank Wimberly My memoir: https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly My scientific publications: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 Phone (505) 670-9918 On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 4:10 PM Nick Thompson <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi, Glen, > > > > I realize I am about to make you grumpy and I HATE when I do that. But > ... I think (perhaps Frank will confirm) that I am a person who does not > believe in qualia. Let's see. I will check my behavior and see. OH, > yes. I have written: > > > > *Devil’s advocate: If feelings are something that one does, rather than > something that one “has inside,” then the right sort of robot should be > capable of feeling when it does the sorts of things that humans do when we > say that humans are feeling something. Are you prepared to live with that > implication?* > > *Sure.* > > *Devil’s advocate: So a robot could be made that would feel pain?* > > *Well,* *you are cheating a bit, because you are asking me to participate > in a word game I have already disavowed, the game in which pain is > something inside my brain that I use my pain-feelers to palpate (see also > Natsoulas, this volume). To me, pain is an emergency organization of my > behavior in which I deploy physical and social defenses of various sorts. > You show me a robot that is part of a society of robots, becomes frantic > when you break some part of it, calls upon its fellow robots to assist, > etc., I will be happy to admit that it is “paining.”* > > *Devil’s advocate: On your account, nonsocial animals don’t feel pain?* > > *Well,* *not the same sort of pain. Any creature that struggles when you > do something to it is “paining” in some sense. But animals that have the > potential to summon help seem to pain in a different way.* > > *Devil’s* *advocate: But, Nick, while “paining” sounds nice in an > academic paper, it is just silly otherwise. The other day I felt quite > nauseous after a meal. I am interested in what it’s like to feel > nauseous, and you* > > *237* > > > > *cannot honestly claim that you don’t know what feeling nauseous is like. > Behavioral correlates aren’t at issue; stop changing the subject.* > > *What is “being nauseous” like? It’s like being on a small boat in a > choppy sea, it’s like being in a world that is revolving when others see it > as stable, it’s like being gray in the face and turning away from the > sights and smells of food that others find attractive, it’s like having > your head in the toilet when others have theirs in the refrigerator.* > > *But you have brought us to the crux of the problem. Nobody has ever been > satisfied with my answers to these “What is it like to be a > ?” questions. “What is it like to be in pain? What is it like* *to be a > bat? What is it like to be Nick Thompson?” Notice how the grammar is > contorted. If you ask the question in its natural order, you begin to see a > path to an answer. “What is being Nick Thompson like?” “It’s like running > around like a chicken with its head cut off.” OK. I get that. I see me > doing that. You see me doing that. But most people won’t be satisfied with > that sort of answer, because it’s the same as the answer to the question, > “What do people like Nick Thompson do?” and therefore appears to convey no > information that is inherently private. To me, the question, “What is it > like to be X?”, has been fully answered when you have said where X-like > people can be found and what they will be doing there. However, I seem to > be pretty alone in that view.* > > *Devil’s advocate: Now I see why you annoy people. I ask you a perfectly > straightforward question about the quality of an experience and you keep > trying to saddle me with a description of a behavior. You just change the > subject. You clearly understand me when I ask you about the quality of > feeling nauseous, yet you answer like a person who doesn’t understand.* > > *Well,* *here you just prove my point by refusing to believe me when I > say that for me, feeling is a kind of doing, an exploring of the world. > Where does somebody who believes that mental states are private, and that > each person has privileged access to their own mental states, stand to deny > me my account of my own mental states? You can’t have it both ways—you have > run smack-dab into the ultimate foolishness of your position.* > > > > Gee. I guess I don’t believe in qualia. > > > > Nick > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of u?l? ? > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 4:50 PM > To: FriAM <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize? > > > > In an attempt to avoid a descent into arguing about the meanings of words, > it seems reasonable enough to say that whatever plants may or may not feel, > what they feel will result in wildly different qualia than what we > experience. Right? > > > > So, we don't have to argue about whether plants feel pain. We can argue > about the extent of the similarity between plants' vs. animals' > enteroception. > > > > On 09/17/2018 01:37 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > > > So, David, > > > > > > A tree, when assaulted by caterpillars, alters its physiology to produce > toxins (at cost to its growth) and puts out chemicals to alert neighboring > trees which do the same. > > > > > > On what basis exactly do you assert that trees don't feel pain. > > > > > > I stipulate that this question is asked by a person who doesn't think > humans "feel pain". There aren’t two steps, pain and the feeling of it. > > > > > > -- > > ☣ uǝlƃ > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
