Parts of this discussion remind me of my struggle to find my identity when I was in highschool. My father was a nuclear engineer and a manager of large projects. I had always thought that science and engineering were, respectively, the royal road to the truth and the methods for constructing the built world. I had already been admitted to Carnegie Institute of Technology with an Alfred P. Sloan scholarship. Then I read a book by Mortimer J. Adler and Clifton Fadiman about the great books of Western culture. They argued for the importance of a liberal education and I was convinced. I started regretting that I had committed to a school that wasn't a University. Then a few things happened. During freshman orientation at CIT the provost said something like "If you came to a technical university because you think that humanities and social science are BS you might be surprised to learn that 40%of your coursework here will be in those areas". In 1967, two years later, CIT became Carnegie Mellon University. I transferred to UC Berkeley during my sophomore year. For what it's worth.
----------------------------------- Frank Wimberly My memoir: https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly My scientific publications: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 Phone (505) 670-9918 On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, 10:12 AM Nick Thompson <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks for the elaboration, Dave. Sounds like a great program. Have you > ever written it up AS a program proposal and broadcast it to > universities? That's how I got my job at Clark, surprisingly enough. The > program description was published as a letter in *The American > Psychologist *although the program itself was never formally created. If > you read it, please bear in mind that it was written half a century ago. > Some of the language is a bit … funny. Also not the brief letter published > just ahead of it on… yes … psexism in sychology. > > > > But could your graduates write a sonnet? > > > > N > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Prof David > West > Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 9:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] are we how we behave? > > > > Ok Steve, > > > > First some elaboration: > > > > In 25 BC, Vitruvius (considered the founder of the discipline of > architecture) stated: > > > > "The ideal architect should be a man of letters, a skillful draftsman, a > mathematician, familiar with historical studies, a diligent student of > philosophy, acquainted with music; not ignorant of medicine, learned in the > responses of jurisconsults, familiar with astronomy, and astronomical > calculations." > > > > In 2004(5?) Christopher Alexander (architect) spoke to an audience of 1000 > or so software developers; noting that professional architects are > responsible for 10 percent of the built environment while software > developers would be responsible for, essentially, 100% of the environment > within which we all live, work, and play. > > > > Is it unreasonable to expect software developers to have an equivalent, in > terms of modern knowledge, educational foundation? > > > > The term "modern polymath" has gained significant traction in the business > and the design press. Business attention comes from an awareness that in > order to thrive, to innovate, in a highly dynamic and complex context, > decentralization of analysis and decision making is essential. But, this > requires a qualitatively different kind of employee — one with both breadth > and depth of knowledge. Moreover, both in business and design, work is done > by teams — multi-disciplinary teams; teams that must transcend individual > silos of expertise. A modern polymath is someone with significant, > integrated, breadth of understanding with multiple (albeit to different > degrees) instances of depth. The visual metaphor is a "broken comb." > > > > Much more could be offered in terms of identifying and arguing for the > need of broadly educated individuals and extension of that need into almost > any discipline. > > > > Now the jumping up and down with a bit of YELLING. > > > > AS THEY HAVE EVOLVED, CONTEMPORARY UNIVERSITIES CANNOT GRADUATE > INDIVIDUALS THAT EVEN APPROXIMATE MODERN POLYMATHS. > > > > I could list numerous reasons for this assertion, but will, instead, offer > a single illustration. > > > > The program that I delivered at Highlands (co-taught with Pam Rostal) was > designed to graduate software developers who were modern polymaths. We > devised a set of 321 "competencies" and students had to demonstrate their > mastery of each at up to five different levels ranging from "rote > application under supervision" to "making a contribution to understanding." > Competencies ranged in subject matter from Anthropology to Zooloqy. We also > utilized 'just in time learning' and tinversion of the teaching approach: > graduate level first, fundamentals later. > > > > It worked. The first year we had half the students (Freshmen to Graduate > level) presenting refereed papers at two conferences with the highest > rejection rate of all conferences at that time. All of our students were > offered mid-level positions in industry - very notably at a national, not > just local level) in software development — not entry level. > > > > [An article for the Cutter Journal on this subject should appear in the > next few weeks. I will share with anyone interested when it is published.] > > > > The point of this reminiscence: As an experiment we put the knowledge base > expected of our students in the form of traditional 3-4 credit courses. The > number of courses and credits required was the equivalent of 4 > undergraduate degrees and 3 Masters Degree programs. > > > > Our program could not be replicated at any other university as it violated > EVERY precept of university teaching and organization. > > > > davew > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, at 9:29 PM, Steven A Smith wrote: > > > Nick - > > > > > > I think you described the difference between vocational training and > > > an education. Hazing seems more relevant to fraternal organizations > > > and perhaps working as a GRA or TA? > > > > > > My university motto was "to become more educated is to become more > > > human" and my Philosophy 101 professor made a very strong point of > > > that to the class. I don't know if it effected anyone else like it did > me. > > > I had been angling toward sharpening my head to the finest point > > > possible on the natural sciences (physics in particular), mathematics > > > and some of that new-fangled computer-engineering stuff. His > > > admonition, along with a number of professors who made their subjects > > > much more interesting (and relevant) than I had ever encountered in > > > public education to that point caused me to take a very broad > > > selection of liberal arts courses which I feel almost exclusively > > > enrichened my life (personal and professional) to this day. > > > > > > I chose to study (a minimum of) Latin (as well as Greek and Esperanto) > > > to add to my street/border Spanish and I think I would have been > > > served (yet more) well by having more language education expected of me. > > > Dentists absolutely need to understand Calculus (and Tartar) as do > > > dental hygenists (bad pun), and doctors of course should understand > > > the chemistry of organisms (more bad yet). > > > > > > Dave - > > > > > > I for one would be interested in some elaboration on your point(s), or > > > at least to watch you jump up and down? > > > > > > - Steve > > > > > > > Nick, you pose an interesting question. From one perspective, that of > an idealist who believes in the old version of a liberal arts education and > the modern notion of a "modern polymath" I would answer yes to your > question. As a veteran of academia i would emphatically jump up and down > and say no - it is nonsense. > > > > > > > > I could elaborate on my answer, should anyone be interested. > > > > > > > > davew > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, at 2:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > > > >> Did I really REALLY have to learn Latin to be an Educated Man. > > > >> Read in two languages to get a PHD? Do you really have to get an A > in organic > > > >> chemistry to be a good doctor? In Calculus to be a dentist? > > > >> > > > >> How do we tell the difference between hazing and education? > > > >> > > > >> n > > > >> > > > >> Nicholas S. Thompson > > > >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University > > > >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: Friam [mailto:[email protected] > <[email protected]>] On Behalf Of u?l? ? > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 2:40 PM > > > >> To: FriAM <[email protected]> > > > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] are we how we behave? > > > >> > > > >> I can't help but tie these maunderings to the modern epithets of > > > >> "snowflake" and "privilege" (shared by opposite but similar > > > >> ideologues). I have to wonder what it means to "learn" something. > > > >> The question of whether a robot will take one's job cuts nicely to > > > >> the chase, I think. How much of what any of us do/know is uniquely > > > >> (or > > > >> best) doable by a general intelligence (if such exists) versus > > > >> specific intelligence? While I'm slightly fluent in a handful of > > > >> programming languages, I cannot (anymore) just sit down and write a > > > >> program in any one of them. I was pretty embarrassed at a recent > > > >> interview where they asked me to code my solution to their > > > >> interview question on the whiteboard. After I was done I noticed > > > >> sugar from 3 different languages in the code I "wrote" ... all mixed > together for convenience. > > > >> They said they didn't mind. But who knows? Which is better? > > > >> Being able to coherently code in one language, with nearly > > > >> compilable code off the bat? Or the [dis]ability of changing > > > >> languages on a regular basis in order to express a relatively > > > >> portable algorithm? Which one would be easier for a robot? I > honestly have no idea. > > > >> > > > >> But the idea that the arbitrary persnickety sugar I learned > > > >> yesterday > > > >> *should* be useful today seems like a bit of a snowflake/privileged > > > >> way to think (even ignoring the "problem of induction" we often > > > >> talk about on this list). Is what it means to "learn" something > > > >> fundamentally different from one era to the next? Do the practical > > > >> elements of "learning" evolve over time? Does it really ... > > > >> really? ... help to know how a motor works in order to drive a car? > > > >> ... to reliably drive a car so that one's future is more > > > >> predictable? ... to reduce the total cost of ownership of one's > > > >> car? Or is there a logical layer of abstraction below which the Eloi > really don't need to go? > > > >> > > > >> On 3/5/19 11:04 AM, Steven A Smith wrote: > > > >>> Interesting to see the "new bar" set so low as age 30. Reminds me > > > >>> of my own youth when the "Hippie generation" was saying "don't > > > >>> trust anyone over 30!". Later I got to know a lot of folks from the > "Beat" > > > >>> generation who were probably in their 30's by that time and rather > > > >>> put out that they couldn't keep their "hip" going amongst the new > youth culture. > > > >>> > > > >>> ... > > > >>> My mules are named Fortran/Prolog/APL/C/PERL and > VMS/BSD/Solaris/NeXT > > > >>> and IBM/CDC/CRAY/DEC and GL/OpenGL/VRPN/VRML. I barely know the > > > >>> names of the new > > > >>> tractors/combines/cropdusters/satellite-imaging/laser-leveling/??? > > > >>> technology. > > > >>> > > > >>> Always to be counted on for nostalgic maunderings, > > > >> -- > > > >> ☣ uǝlƃ > > > >> ============================================================ > > > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at > > > >> cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > > >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > >> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ============================================================ > > > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at > > > >> cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > > >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > >> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > >> > > > > ============================================================ > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at > > > > cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > > > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
