Nick, Yes the program and a similar effort led by Richard Gabriel — Master of Fine Arts in Software — was pitched to numerous universities, generating huge enthusiasm and ultimate falling victim to curricular affairs committees.
davew On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, at 10:12 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Thanks for the elaboration, Dave. Sounds like a great program. Have you ever > written it up AS a program proposal and broadcast it to universities? That's > how I got my job at Clark, surprisingly enough. The program description was > published as a letter in *The American Psychologist *although the program > itself was never formally created. If you read it, please bear in mind that > it was written half a century ago. Some of the language is a bit … funny. > Also not the brief letter published just ahead of it on… yes … psexism in > sychology. > > But could your graduates write a sonnet? > > N > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > Clark University > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Prof David West > Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 9:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] are we how we behave? > > Ok Steve, > > First some elaboration: > > In 25 BC, Vitruvius (considered the founder of the discipline of > architecture) stated: > > "The ideal architect should be a man of letters, a skillful draftsman, a > mathematician, familiar with historical studies, a diligent student of > philosophy, acquainted with music; not ignorant of medicine, learned in the > responses of jurisconsults, familiar with astronomy, and astronomical > calculations." > > In 2004(5?) Christopher Alexander (architect) spoke to an audience of 1000 or > so software developers; noting that professional architects are responsible > for 10 percent of the built environment while software developers would be > responsible for, essentially, 100% of the environment within which we all > live, work, and play. > > Is it unreasonable to expect software developers to have an equivalent, in > terms of modern knowledge, educational foundation? > > The term "modern polymath" has gained significant traction in the business > and the design press. Business attention comes from an awareness that in > order to thrive, to innovate, in a highly dynamic and complex context, > decentralization of analysis and decision making is essential. But, this > requires a qualitatively different kind of employee — one with both breadth > and depth of knowledge. Moreover, both in business and design, work is done > by teams — multi-disciplinary teams; teams that must transcend individual > silos of expertise. A modern polymath is someone with significant, > integrated, breadth of understanding with multiple (albeit to different > degrees) instances of depth. The visual metaphor is a "broken comb." > > Much more could be offered in terms of identifying and arguing for the need > of broadly educated individuals and extension of that need into almost any > discipline. > > Now the jumping up and down with a bit of YELLING. > > AS THEY HAVE EVOLVED, CONTEMPORARY UNIVERSITIES CANNOT GRADUATE INDIVIDUALS > THAT EVEN APPROXIMATE MODERN POLYMATHS. > > I could list numerous reasons for this assertion, but will, instead, offer a > single illustration. > > The program that I delivered at Highlands (co-taught with Pam Rostal) was > designed to graduate software developers who were modern polymaths. We > devised a set of 321 "competencies" and students had to demonstrate their > mastery of each at up to five different levels ranging from "rote application > under supervision" to "making a contribution to understanding." Competencies > ranged in subject matter from Anthropology to Zooloqy. We also utilized 'just > in time learning' and tinversion of the teaching approach: graduate level > first, fundamentals later. > > It worked. The first year we had half the students (Freshmen to Graduate > level) presenting refereed papers at two conferences with the highest > rejection rate of all conferences at that time. All of our students were > offered mid-level positions in industry - very notably at a national, not > just local level) in software development — not entry level. > > [An article for the Cutter Journal on this subject should appear in the next > few weeks. I will share with anyone interested when it is published.] > > The point of this reminiscence: As an experiment we put the knowledge base > expected of our students in the form of traditional 3-4 credit courses. The > number of courses and credits required was the equivalent of 4 undergraduate > degrees and 3 Masters Degree programs. > > Our program could not be replicated at any other university as it violated > EVERY precept of university teaching and organization. > > davew > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, at 9:29 PM, Steven A Smith wrote: > > Nick - > > > > I think you described the difference between vocational training and > > an education. Hazing seems more relevant to fraternal organizations > > and perhaps working as a GRA or TA? > > > > My university motto was "to become more educated is to become more > > human" and my Philosophy 101 professor made a very strong point of > > that to the class. I don't know if it effected anyone else like it did me. > > I had been angling toward sharpening my head to the finest point > > possible on the natural sciences (physics in particular), mathematics > > and some of that new-fangled computer-engineering stuff. His > > admonition, along with a number of professors who made their subjects > > much more interesting (and relevant) than I had ever encountered in > > public education to that point caused me to take a very broad > > selection of liberal arts courses which I feel almost exclusively > > enrichened my life (personal and professional) to this day. > > > > I chose to study (a minimum of) Latin (as well as Greek and Esperanto) > > to add to my street/border Spanish and I think I would have been > > served (yet more) well by having more language education expected of me. > > Dentists absolutely need to understand Calculus (and Tartar) as do > > dental hygenists (bad pun), and doctors of course should understand > > the chemistry of organisms (more bad yet). > > > > Dave - > > > > I for one would be interested in some elaboration on your point(s), or > > at least to watch you jump up and down? > > > > - Steve > > > > > Nick, you pose an interesting question. From one perspective, that of an > > > idealist who believes in the old version of a liberal arts education and > > > the modern notion of a "modern polymath" I would answer yes to your > > > question. As a veteran of academia i would emphatically jump up and down > > > and say no - it is nonsense. > > > > > > I could elaborate on my answer, should anyone be interested. > > > > > > davew > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, at 2:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > > >> Did I really REALLY have to learn Latin to be an Educated Man. > > >> Read in two languages to get a PHD? Do you really have to get an A in > > >> organic > > >> chemistry to be a good doctor? In Calculus to be a dentist? > > >> > > >> How do we tell the difference between hazing and education? > > >> > > >> n > > >> > > >> Nicholas S. Thompson > > >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University > > >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of u?l? ? > > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 2:40 PM > > >> To: FriAM <[email protected]> > > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] are we how we behave? > > >> > > >> I can't help but tie these maunderings to the modern epithets of > > >> "snowflake" and "privilege" (shared by opposite but similar > > >> ideologues). I have to wonder what it means to "learn" something. > > >> The question of whether a robot will take one's job cuts nicely to > > >> the chase, I think. How much of what any of us do/know is uniquely > > >> (or > > >> best) doable by a general intelligence (if such exists) versus > > >> specific intelligence? While I'm slightly fluent in a handful of > > >> programming languages, I cannot (anymore) just sit down and write a > > >> program in any one of them. I was pretty embarrassed at a recent > > >> interview where they asked me to code my solution to their > > >> interview question on the whiteboard. After I was done I noticed > > >> sugar from 3 different languages in the code I "wrote" ... all mixed > > >> together for convenience. > > >> They said they didn't mind. But who knows? Which is better? > > >> Being able to coherently code in one language, with nearly > > >> compilable code off the bat? Or the [dis]ability of changing > > >> languages on a regular basis in order to express a relatively > > >> portable algorithm? Which one would be easier for a robot? I honestly > > >> have no idea. > > >> > > >> But the idea that the arbitrary persnickety sugar I learned > > >> yesterday > > >> *should* be useful today seems like a bit of a snowflake/privileged > > >> way to think (even ignoring the "problem of induction" we often > > >> talk about on this list). Is what it means to "learn" something > > >> fundamentally different from one era to the next? Do the practical > > >> elements of "learning" evolve over time? Does it really ... > > >> really? ... help to know how a motor works in order to drive a car? > > >> ... to reliably drive a car so that one's future is more > > >> predictable? ... to reduce the total cost of ownership of one's > > >> car? Or is there a logical layer of abstraction below which the Eloi > > >> really don't need to go? > > >> > > >> On 3/5/19 11:04 AM, Steven A Smith wrote: > > >>> Interesting to see the "new bar" set so low as age 30. Reminds me > > >>> of my own youth when the "Hippie generation" was saying "don't > > >>> trust anyone over 30!". Later I got to know a lot of folks from the > > >>> "Beat" > > >>> generation who were probably in their 30's by that time and rather > > >>> put out that they couldn't keep their "hip" going amongst the new youth > > >>> culture. > > >>> > > >>> ... > > >>> My mules are named Fortran/Prolog/APL/C/PERL and VMS/BSD/Solaris/NeXT > > >>> and IBM/CDC/CRAY/DEC and GL/OpenGL/VRPN/VRML. I barely know the > > >>> names of the new > > >>> tractors/combines/cropdusters/satellite-imaging/laser-leveling/??? > > >>> technology. > > >>> > > >>> Always to be counted on for nostalgic maunderings, > > >> -- > > >> ☣ uǝlƃ > > >> ============================================================ > > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at > > >> cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > >> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > >> > > >> > > >> ============================================================ > > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at > > >> cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > >> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > >> > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at > > > cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > *Attachments:* > * Pyschobiology as a form of general education.pdf
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
