Hi, Glen,
See Larding below: Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2019 11:24 AM To: FriAM <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] is this true? The idea that the path of least resistance *names* the end result [NST==>Nifty succinct way of putting it. <==nst] [NST==><==nst] is interesting. But it's definitely NOT what *I* mean when I hear "similar effects on the brain". What I mean is along the same lines of the 3 links I posted: <https://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/27/health/behavior-like-drugs-talk-therapy-can-change-brain-chemistry.html> https://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/27/health/behavior-like-drugs-talk-therapy-can-change-brain-chemistry.html [NST==> Ok. So I looked at this. There seems to be a lot of baffle gab about the caudate nucleus. Let’s just stipulate for the moment that therapy and drugs had exactly the same effect on the caudate nucleus. Then they would be two different techniques for having the SAME EFFECT VIA THE SAME ANATOMICAL STRUCTURE. Now, as Glen points out, there is no need for this to be the case. The two modalities could work on entirely different parts of the central nervous systems, yet have pretty much the same effect for our purposes on behavior, right?. What gets my goat here is the Times headline: Like Drugs, Talk Therapy Can Change Brain Chemistry What is the source of the headline writer’s surprise? Of course therapy affects the brain. UNLESS, one is a body/mind dualist and believes that God has given us souls and there are two quite separate routes by which to change behavior, through the activities of the soul/mind and through the activities of the body. I assume that none of us on this site are that sort of dualist, yet we can all get hooked by articles with that sort of title. Why? That’s NOT a rhetorical question. Working conditions here terrible Have to stop and send. Sorry if typos. n <==nst] <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-018-0128-4> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-018-0128-4 <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5957509/> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5957509/ Patterns in PET scans (glucose uptake?) and the like are "effects on the brain" (and other parts of the body, it should go without saying). The "effect" is what we observe on the sliced out part [NST==><==nst] Yes. I am nervous about this way of thinking. If you meant literally sliced out, the organism would be dead, so the operation would be irrelevant; if you meant conceptually sliced out, then we’re back in spherical cow territory. (Never slice an organ from a spherical cow.) of the object, not the whole organism. Maybe it would help to talk about the liver? When I talk about alcohol's "effect on the liver", I'm not talking about alcoholics over-sharing in church basements. Similarly, if I say, "slamming my hand on the table had an effect", the "effect" I'm talking about is that my hand start to hurt, not how the other people in the room react. And I believe that's how the author was using the word "effect" when they made their unjustified claim that talk therapy has similar effects to drug therapy. But I could easily be wrong about that, too. On 3/13/19 10:10 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Ok. I should stop being snarky and try to answer my own damned question. I > think we parse things into "brain" effects and "therapy" effects depending on > the lability of behavior with respect to the manipulation we are > contemplating. Let's say the symptom is Thompson's Snarkiness. Let's say it > could be cured either by a 25 cent pill or ten thousand hours of therapy. We > would call this a brain effect. On the other hand, let's say it could be > cured by a ten thousand dollar course of pills or one hour of therapy. We > would call this a therapy effect. These attributions would apply even if it > could be demonstated that they all acted on precisely the same part of the > brain. > > Am I wrong about that? -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
