Hi Frank,
You are correct about the reversal, but it was not of the retina but of the lenses of the eyes, which invert the image. This work was done by Hans Wallach, who was my first chairman at Swarthmore College, and is probably the main reason I did not get to stay there: I annoyed him. But my concern is NOT about the lenses, but about the anatomy of the retina itself. The light-sensitive elements of the retina, the rods and cones, are at the BACK of the retina. The complex neuroanatomy of the retina, the ganglion cells that summarize and organize the incoming information all lie BETWEEN the rods and cones and the light. One theory <http://theconversation.com/look-your-eyes-are-wired-backwards-heres-why-38319> is that the glial cells of the retina are already processing the light before it gets to the rods and cones. I don’t know what a monist would say about this, but I do know that the notion that the retina is a “film” is deeply flawed. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 10:35 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] sensitive, aren't we? Nick, I think I remember, from my time as a psych student, an experiment in which the reversal of the retina was undone by special lenses and the subjects adapted perfectly surprisingly quickly. Is that correct? Frank ----------------------------------- Frank Wimberly My memoir: https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly My scientific publications: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 Phone (505) 670-9918 On Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 8:16 AM Nick Thompson <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Dave West Wrot: To bring the sensitivity question back into play: the real messiness of the external world arises from the quantum level - the fundamental 'process' occurs within (below, underneath, at different level) the apparent stability and predictability of the Newtonian world. The latter is illusion and attempts to conform to it lead to silliness like wearing retinas backwards, attachment, karma, rebirth, politics, etc. etc. Luckily we have sensitivity to the quantum and therefore have the potential for enlightenment. The Monist replyeth, I care not for your quantum or Newtonian world. All I care for is experience. I care not at all if it is experience OF anything, except insofar as such constructions help me to regulate my experience. But the Monist still wonders why the design of my retina does not introduce unnecessary turbulence in the prediction and control of my experience. Why go to all the trouble to have a quantum-sensitive system, and then throw it away by the design of the retina? Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ] On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 2:14 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] sensitive, aren't we? re: "deep philosophical questions: Two (at least) quite different answers depending on the philosophical school answering. One, the Rationalists among us will agree with your "entirely" comment. Precision is required for both the model and the inputs — subject of course to the odd butterfly or two. Process philosophers (e.g. Whitehead, Heidegger, Korzibski, Heraclitus, some Postmodernists, Alan Watts and most Buddhists) would assume inaccuracy in both model and input. A 'process' is highly dynamic and constantly changing, at least in 'detail'. What appears to be 'consistency' and 'predictability' is more akin to a kind of momentum. I have to take a ferry each morning and evening across the IJ river and the process of steering a multi-ton, 35-meter, ferry to align with a 5-meter opening at the dock on each side requires constant imperfect measurements of dynamic forces of varying degrees - river current, wakes from passing ships, wind, etc. - and imperfect or 'gross' adjustments via engines and rudder is a process. There is not model, except a transient and constantly changing one in the captain's head and measurements / adjustments arise from another process - constant adjustment of heuristic observations synthesized (overlay fashion) with memories. The assumption for a process philosopher is that the world provides nothing but messy inputs to the ability to deal with them would be the advantage. To bring the sensitivity question back into play: the real messiness of the external world arises from the quantum level - the fundamental 'process' occurs within (below, underneath, at different level) the apparent stability and predictability of the Newtonian world. The latter is illusion and attempts to conform to it lead to silliness like wearing retinas backwards, attachment, karma, rebirth, politics, etc. etc. Luckily we have sensitivity to the quantum and therefore have the potential for enlightenment. [Imagine the smile on my face as I contemplate Nick reading the last paragraph] davew On Mon, Jun 24, 2019, at 6:53 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Deep philosophical question: I don't think the nervous system is > interested in accuracy, per se. It is interested in prediction. So, > an "inaccurate" system that give a better prediction of future events > would be favored overran accurate one. The deep question, which I > suspect you Wise Guys are in a position to answer for me is: to what > degree is predictive accuracy dependent on accuracy of input. Now the > first intuition is "entirely." In meteorology, they talk about the > "initiation of models", which I take to mean how good were the > measurements that they plugged in for today's observations on which > they based their predictions of future ones. I wonder what sort of > tradesoff exist between getting the original points right and getting > the model right. > > But I note, even as I drown here, how come we wear our retina's > backwards. Seems awfully careless of us, doesn't it? Is there any > world in which messy input is an advantage, or at least, not much of a > disadvantage? > > Nick > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University > <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam [ <mailto:[email protected]> > mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Prof David > West > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 12:42 PM > To: <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] sensitive, aren't we? > > Ah Nick, > > because they finely tune the carrier wave (that which you perceive as > neural noise) in such a way that my quantum signal, being the delicate > creature it is, can survive multiple synaptic shocks as it moves from > neuron to neuron — the way you would want a well padded barrel when > going over Niagara Falls. > > davew > > (I assume you are wearing your hip boots as standard gear in the MIB.) > > > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2019, at 4:10 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > > David, > > > > I will see your "bushwash" and raise you a hornswaggle. > > > > Why, my feathered friend, if quantum accuracy is so important, do > > you wear your retina backwards? Why do you see through your > > ganglion cells. > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University > > <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Friam [ <mailto:[email protected]> > > mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Prof > > David West > > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 4:24 AM > > To: <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] sensitive, aren't we? > > > > Nick said: > > "I was taught this fascinating trope in graduate school... yes, > > THAT long ago. There is a second shoe, however. Yes the retina > > (cochlea, > > etc.) is that sensitive BUT the neural noise is much louder than that. > > > > So ... I think this is the right language ... even though the > > elements are sensitive to the smallest stimuli possible, the whole > > system cannot resolve stimuli that small ... anywhere near." > > > > Not to impugn your professors, but bushwah! > > > > To make an analogy: the "neural noise" is akin to "junk DNA" just > > because they had not figured out what signals existed within the > > noise and how they were transmitted and received does not mean lost signal. > > > > While "the system" seldom makes the effort to resolve at quanta > > scale does not mean that it cannot. (Why it seldom does is whole > > 'nuther > > thread.) > > > > But, assuming your professors were correct, would it be permissible > > to ask why the organism evolved the sensitivity only to evolve the > > blockade? Or, having evolved the blockade why then evolve the > > sensitivity? Where is the competitive advantage in having either the > > sensitivity or the blockade? Or, do such questions tend not to > > edification? > > > > I have seen the angels dancing on the head of the pin, so I know it > > can be done. Have also consorted with others, directly or > > intermediated by words, who can say, and demonstrate, the same. > > > > davew > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019, at 4:32 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > > > David, > > > > > > Can somebody forward this on to Mike Daly, whose email I can NEVER > > > recover? > > > > > > I was taught this fascinating trope in graduate school... yes, > > > THAT long ago. There is a second shoe, however. Yes the retina > > > (cochlea, > > > etc.) is that sensitive BUT the neural noise is much louder than that. > > > So ... I think this is the right language ... even though the > > > elements are sensitive to the smallest stimuli possible, the whole system > > > cannot > > > resolve stimuli that small ... anywhere near. To do what it does, it > > > needs to weed out its own noise. So accuracy in vision is not a > > > question of accuracy of the elements, but of the ingenuity of > > > construction. Note, for instance that we wear our retinas "backwards": > > > we actually see THOUGH the many layers of the retina because the > > > light sensitive elements ... the rods and cones ... are at the > > > back of the retina. So all that sensitivity of light sensing > > > elements is rudely cast away in the organization of the retina. > > > It's like we are a football players who wear our jerseys inside out but > > > boast about the > > > precision, detail, and color of our logos. > > > > > > > > > Hope you are well. Where are you well? > > > > > > All my Peirce books were lost in the mail coming here, so I have > > > been focusing on my garden. Mild, calm June. May be the best garden > > > ever. > > > But my mind? Not so sure about that. > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University > > > <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Friam [ <mailto:[email protected]> > > > mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Prof > > > David West > > > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 4:15 AM > > > To: <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] > > > Subject: [FRIAM] sensitive, aren't we? > > > > > > Doing some reading on quantum consciousness and embodied mind and > > > came across these items: > > > > > > > > > <https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-human-eye-could-hel> > > > https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-human-eye-could-hel > > > p- > > > te > > > st-quantum-mechanics/ > > > > > > <https://www.nature.com/news/people-can-sense-single-photons-1.2028> > > > https://www.nature.com/news/people-can-sense-single-photons-1.2028 > > > 2 > > > > > > (A Rebecca Holmes from Los Alamos Natl. Labs is part of the > > > Scientific American reported research.) > > > > > > not only can the human eye perceive individual photons (and > > > perhaps quanta level phenomena) "The healthy human cochlea is so > > > sensitive that it can detect vibration with amplitude less than > > > the diameter of an atom, and it can resolve time intervals down to > > > 10µs [i.e., microseconds, or millionths of a second]. It has been > > > calculated that the human ear detects energy levels 10- fold lower > > > than the energy of a single photon in the green wavelength…” > > > Regarding human tactile and related senses (haptic, > > > proprioceptive), it has recently been determined that “human > > > tactile discrimination extends to the nanoscale [ie, within > > > billionths of a meter],” this research having been published in the > > > journal, Scientific Reports (Skedung et al 2013)" > > > > > > interesting stuff > > > dave west > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at > > > cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > archives back to 2003: <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > > > http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > > > http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at > > > cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > archives back to 2003: <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > > > http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > > > http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at > > cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives back to 2003: <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > > http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > > http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at > > cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives back to 2003: <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > > http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > > http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
