I am not sure I agree with the arguments from you Russ. You say "People aren't the same, but they are similar - and human society functions because we can predict to some extent what other people are likely to do [...]. We have also evolved the ability to 'put ourselves in somebody else's skin', taking into account the obvious external differences."But we cannot predict what someone else will do, only if we know the person really well - for instance if it is your wife or husband for 30 years. In whodunit films it becomes clear in the end why people have acted they way they did, but only in hindsight. In hindsight we almost always can say why people acted the way they did, but we cannot predict it beforehand. You say hindsight is 20/20 for this in English, right?We also haven't evolved the ability to "put ourselves in somebody else's skin". It is not impossible, but can be very difficult and requires detailed knowledge and imagination. This is the reason why Hollywood has invented cinemas to show us how what it is like to be somebody else (the GoPro cameras in modern days have the same function).Therefore I tend to disagree with both statements. -J. -------- Original message --------From: Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> Date: 6/28/20 15:07 (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] God Russ,Your views on these matters are very similar to my own.Frank---Frank C. Wimberly140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505505 670-9918Santa Fe, NMOn Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 2:11 AM Russell Standish <[email protected]> wrote:Hi Nick - finally took a look at your paper. I didn't read it to the nth detail, but from what I understand, your scepticism about "ejective anthropmorphism" (nice term by the way) stands on two legs:
1) What exactly is priveleged about introspection? 2) That the process of ejective anthropomorphism starts from an identity between the target behaviour and the observers behaviour, which is structy false. The example being given of a dog scratching at a door to get in. In response, I would say there is plenty of privelege in introspection. For example, proprioception is entirely priveleged - that information is simply now available to external observers. In terms of the identity of target and observer behaviour, it doesn't need to be identical, but it does need to be analogical. The most important application of this skill is prediction of what other human beings do. People aren't the same, but they are similar - and human society functions because we can predict to some extent what other people are likely to do. I believe this is why self-awareness evoved in the first place. Something similar may have evolved in dogs, which are social pack animals. We have also evolved the ability to "put ourselves in somebody else's skin", taking into account the obvious external differences. So we can imagine being a dog, and wanting to get through a door, what would we do. We know we cannot stand up, and turn the door knob, because we don't have hands, so what would we do, given we only have paws. Scratching behaviour does seem a likely behaviour then. That, then is analogical. So, I'm not exactly convinced :). Cheers On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 04:32:05PM -0600, [email protected] wrote: > Sorry Russ. It was in a hyperlink: > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311349078_The_many_perils_of_ejecti > ve_anthropomorphism > > Nicholas Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > Clark University > [email protected] > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Russell Standish > Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 4:27 PM > To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] God > > On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 09:59:37PM -0600, [email protected] wrote: > > Hi Russ, > > > > > > > > Hawking my wares again. I am sorry but SOMEBODY has to read this > > crap. The argument of this paper is that the flow of inference is > > actually in the other direction. We model our view of ourselves on our > experience with others. > > > > What paper? What argument? > > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders [email protected] > http://www.hpcoders.com.au > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... > ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ... > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... > ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ... > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders [email protected] http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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