It’s interesting you should have ended your email with that term, Nick. I just (in a different medium) learned the meaning of it a few weeks ago. But a more complete source is https://www.yesmagazine.org/economy/2015/05/20/is-west-virginia-s-coal-history-a-goldmine-mine-wars/ <https://www.yesmagazine.org/economy/2015/05/20/is-west-virginia-s-coal-history-a-goldmine-mine-wars/>
It complicates the sense of what you should be concerned about responding to. Eric > On Sep 7, 2020, at 4:43 PM, <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Eric (in your capacity as the one who inspired me to write) and others, > > You can write about “Nick” just so long as you are writing about the > Transcendental Nick, not the actual one. Is that clear? Glen, and I are > having a discussion on this very point, off line. Just who is it that we are > writing to when we write to a list? > > Look, everything you say is true about elephants. And you are right, I don’t > get to declaim that there are no elephants, as long a single person is > behaving as if he sees one. But remember I was writing about Trump and > trying to get my head around somebody who forgives Trump for being a liar by > asserting that “He tells it like it is!” What could that possibly mean? > > When Trump stands by a Vietnam-era soldier’s grave, in the presence of that > soldier’s father, and says, “I don’t get it; what did they get out of it?” > something in me responds, that I have a hard time talking about. I cannot > imagine sending my grandchildren to war, particularly not any of the wars we > have fought in my lifetime. So, odious as Trump’s expression was, in the > context in which it occurred, it speaks for a part of me. Trump tells the > truth about these nether impulses that some of us harbor. He speaks > truthfully of my inner redneck. He tells it like it is. > > Nick > > > > > > Nicholas Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > Clark University > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,Qy8NYHw061lsW96cG_pMF1nrRGKfNU6lLS-YkDnv6LBuHoM1qEZrSDVqTemL77bGYRCnOlkuVM2kIqGO_j48fBCmiBebqUJSM-Q7fIFH&typo=1> > > > From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On > Behalf Of Eric Charles > Sent: Monday, September 7, 2020 12:30 AM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening > > "The truth he tells is that he sees elephants. There are no elephants. But > there are a lot of people who see elephants, and they are weary unto death of > pretending that they don’t see them. " > > Nope, nope, nope. Anyone else on this list gets to say that, and maybe I > would even agree with it coming from anyone else, but Nick Thompson does not > get to say that. Nick must concede that there is something those people are > responding to, and does not get to assert "there are no elephants." Nick must > concede, both as a New Realist and as the type of New England Liberal he > strives to be, that there is a point of view from which there are elephants > in the room, and that he has some obligation to meet the people at the place > where that view is, especially if he wants to try to talk those people into > moving somewhere else. And he can't do that while also making a blanket > declaration of the non-existence of the elephants. > > Nick could be fully consistent with what I have said above while also > believing that the elephant-seeing point of view is (developmentally > speaking) some sort of unstable equilibrium, and that those people would > change when exposed to additional aspects of the world -- whereas Nick's own > non-elephant-seeing point of view is (developmentally speaking) a much more > stable equilibrium, robust to the effects of wider-world exposure.* The > problem comes when Nick wants to assert that in a mythic future, when the > dust of investigation settles, and everyone has experienced all there is to > experience about the world, the elephant-seeing view will be gone, and only > the non-elephant-seeing view will remain. (With that being what we are > shaking our stick at with claims regarding "truth" and "real".) But if > psychology works like the other sciences, that is not what will happen. > Rather, in that mythic future, we will have mapped out the conditions under > which elephant-seeing occurs and the situations in which it does not.** This > is just as the chemist maps out situations in which a given chemical reaction > occurs and situations in which it does not, and just as a mathematician maps > out the postulates combinations that lead to certain mathematical phenomena. > In the end, when the dust of investigation settles, we will understand the > conditions under which elephant-seeing occurs and the situations under which > it does not. And when we find ourselves in a world that meets elephant-seeing > conditions (among the concaphone of conditions present at any given time), we > must admit that there is a place to stand from which elephants will be seen! > > > > * That is, of course, an empirical assertion, and as Nick tries to share > aspects of the world with them, those other people will no doubt try to share > with him, and the robustness of both sides will be tested. > > ** I hope it is clear that "situation" is being used in the broadest sense of > the word, to include the developmental history of those involved, among other > factors. > > P.S. I know Nick doesn't like it when messages over the FRIAM list get overly > personal, but I hope you will all indulge me on occasion, as the issues seem > pertinent to several past and present discussions on the list. > > > On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 1:25 PM <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Eric, >> >> The truth he tells is that he sees elephants. There are no elephants. But >> there are a lot of people who see elephants, and they are weary unto death >> of pretending that they don’t see them. When Trump speaks, they get to >> say, “Oh, you see elephants, too! I am not the only one!” >> >> Nick >> >> Nicholas Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology >> Clark University >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,kj5GsuskdtGLYJiG_gypTrmzfYqCM29zGj49rPdfjZsjAz05Bmsi12AZVMoGKKSYeghTh-lovniZfaK8w10Lk8u5naLTxn9KQcj38OkgXN9PbgRHQc_Xm00-&typo=1> >> >> >> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> On Behalf Of Eric Charles >> Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 11:01 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening >> >>> "Perhaps I should have said, early on, “Look, I’m sorry, I keep seeing you >>> as Uncle Remus. I am sure, as I get to know you better, I will get over >>> it. Please be patient with me, and please call me out whenever you feel >>> confined by it. ” >>> >>> A Liberalism that does not free me is not worth the name." >> >> It will probably not surprise you to know that I find this narration >> baffling. You definitely could say that to him, at any time. There is >> nothing "liberal" about feeling trapped to not discuss something like that. >> If you felt trapped for a bit, not saying anything seems wise. However, at >> some point, you just say it, or give up on the idea that you actually have a >> problem with it. Personally, I'd stay away from an Uncle Remus reference, >> but the whole point here is that the two of you are old, so it might make >> sense in your world. At any rate, the worst case result will be that you >> have been honest with him, and he never spoke to you again. Which is, IMHO, >> a better outcome than your not being honest with him, and he never spoke to >> you again, which seems to be where you are now. Sometimes, certainly not >> always, but sometimes, when I make moves like that in a conversation, you >> later express admiration and/or envy. >> >> I think this relates to the larger question of what some people see in >> Trump. They see him as constantly pointing out what they (his fans) see as >> the "elephant in the room." Sure, he says a boat load of other things, and >> lots of those things are not true, but those aren't the important things. >> "Why do we want all these people from shithole countries coming here?" is a >> great example of a perceived elephant. "There are good people on both sides" >> is another, as is the recent dust-up about "anti-racist" workshops. When >> Trump gets hammered for saying such things, they take away 1) See I was >> right not to risk saying that myself, because my supposedly friendly, >> supposedly open-minded neighbors would have attacked me just for saying it, >> and maybe even tried to get me fired, because apparently they think my kids >> should go hungry if I think something they don't like. 2) Thank God someone >> had the guts to ask the question! 3) What kind of crazy country do these >> libs want to turn us into, with all these elephants wandering all around the >> room, and it's not even enough to not say anything, because now you gotta be >> worried about getting fired if they think you might even have looked at one? >> 4) If I could be me, but also have the guts to talk about the elephants, I >> would be A Better Person. He talks about the elephants, so he is A Better >> Person. >> >> Did that comparison hold together? It felt like it did. >> >> >> >> >> P.S. Add on top of that that a huge chunk of the "lies" are puffery, which >> amounts to telling his supporters that it is ok to feel good about >> themselves and good about their country. This started in earnest with the >> claims about inauguration attendance and continues, for example, with any >> suggestion that we might be doing anything half-decent with our Covid >> response. When Trump gets hammered for saying such things, they take away 1) >> I guess the libs really do want us to feel bad about our country. 2) They >> really think it would be horrible if I felt good about myself for even a >> minute. 3) They are ok judging me when they know nothing about me. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 11:19 PM Steve Smith <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> My solution is to elect Biden and to use Trump as an example of the kind >>>> of person to never elect again. But that's just me. >>> Sounds like a partial lobotomy. I'm game for this... but not sure it is >>> more than "a good start", which of course is, in fact, a good start. >>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Frank C. Wimberly >>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>>> >>>> 505 670-9918 >>>> Santa Fe, NM >>>> >>>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 8:15 PM Steve Smith <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Yes, you could say that government in general and especially lawmakers >>>>> > are our superego. The best common word synonym for superego is >>>>> > conscience. Since a lot of people have lacunae of their own superego >>>>> > we need laws and law enforcers. >>>>> >>>>> So right now we are in the midst of a collective id/ego/superego that is >>>>> experiencing a dissociative episode, both governmental and social? >>>>> >>>>> to the extent the analogy holds, what is an exit/recovery strategy? >>>>> >>>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,n2I7VDLx_BEdLgOmrCiq22m5r86f_QWDRP7l5xgh_gcBbcClUKAyXBMJZxvm8qVtVQb5taEj-f0XlQiE_1x34-H5yKhHtkHt-aDVVus_dw,,&typo=1> >>>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,La5m9ezFJSviWorlKzphxIIn2HHjGWCYrJ7va4U_IUKee_TQPwOYFge7-jl30flZpJxeM4ZsIPAYgVjomGOhMaZyxlaOY22F1vYmx7gp&typo=1> >>>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC> >>>>> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,BMr_m6-WgrTADOiWaJmU2yqkVUIsru59x_G9LmEfM0P07cYd9ZVOK5lFdo0rkUfFnkWbp-oBrC0SrzzTln55Hd8qZXvbO3yCsNvXuQxhi-eGXpt2&typo=1> >>>> >>>> - 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