I would have to research my preferred choices--all women :) Hannah Arendt and Mary Wollstonecraft come immediately to mind.
On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 11:48 AM Jochen Fromm <[email protected]> wrote: > Oh this Spinoza biography looks like an interesting book. If I would have > a time machine, then Darwin, Pascal and Spinoza would be on the list of > persons I would like to visit, although I do not understand French. Gauss, > Goethe, Humboldt and Leibniz too. > > Who would be on your list? George Washington or Abraham Lincoln? Herman > Melville or William James? > > -J. > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Merle Lefkoff <[email protected]> > Date: 2/28/21 18:46 (GMT+01:00) > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Subjective experience & free will > > Baruch ("blessed in Hebrew) de Spinoza was born in Amsterdam in 1632. His > grandfather, Abraham, was a refugee from the Inquisition in Portugal. > > My mother helped edit a biography of Spinoza written by Abraham Wolfson, > published in 1932 by Modern Classics Publishers. (I have a copy dedicated > to my mom.) A facsimile reprint came out in 2007, published by Kessinger > Publishers, because "this scarce antiquarian book is a facsimile reprint > of the original. Due to its age, it may contain imperfections such as > marks, notations, marginalia and flawed pages. Because we believe this work > is culturally important, we have made it available as part of our > commitment for protecting, preserving, and promoting the world's > literature..." > > Chapter XIII is especially interesting to me and begins with a quote from > Goethe: "Truth is a torch, but a terrible one...The natural instinct is to > give a sideglance, lest, looking it fairly in the face, the strong glare > might blind us." > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 7:08 AM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> I think Spaniards think Spinoza was a Spanish Jew (Espinoza). I realize >> this could probably be resolved to my satisfaction by Wikipedia. >> >> --- >> Frank C. Wimberly >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> >> 505 670-9918 >> Santa Fe, NM >> >> On Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 6:50 AM Jochen Fromm <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Spinoza, a Dutch contemporary of Leibniz, argued as well in his book >>> "Ethics" that it is the lack of knowledge & awareness that helps to create >>> the illusion of freedom: >>> >>> "Experience teaches us no less clearly than reason, that men believe >>> themselves free, simply because they are conscious of their actions, and >>> unconscious of the causes whereby those actions are determined". >>> >>> What I like about these 400 year old philosophers is that they have >>> tackled the really big questions. And they worked interdisciplinary, >>> because fields like psychology or physics have not been invented yet. >>> >>> -J. >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Eric Charles <[email protected]> >>> Date: 2/28/21 06:05 (GMT+01:00) >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>> [email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Subjective experience & free will >>> >>> Skinner had the book "Beyond Freedom and Dignity" (1971) that made a >>> similar argument. Basically, he argued that while we didn't have full >>> explanations of behavior yet, we had made enough progress to be confident >>> that behavior could be explained in various ways - development, immediate >>> causation, etc. - in all situations. If we can agree on that, or even >>> mostly-agree on that, what happens to concepts like "freedom", which seem >>> to be applied primarily in situations where we can't obviously explain >>> someone's behavior? >>> >>> When I train a rat to press a lever when the light in the cage >>> illuminates, is the rat free? If your life has trained you to put on your >>> right sock first, then the left, are you free? Etc., etc. And certainly >>> sometimes people feel as if their choices are more "free" or less "free", >>> but what do we do with that? Presumably we can also train people to >>> generally feel free or not, under ostensibly identical current >>> circumstances? (Note how many conversations about White Privilege, or >>> Wealth Inequality, focus on how people who were given great benefits early >>> in life often feel as if they were independently successful based on >>> initiative and merit.) >>> >>> The issue of variation in feeling "free" under ostensibly similar >>> circumstances, is a huge dilemma for me, as I don't feel social pressures >>> in many situations where others do. "I wasn't free to talk in the meeting", >>> someone says. And I look confused, because so far as I could tell they were >>> clearly *free *to talk in the meeting, but *chose *not to for >>> various reasons. >>> >>> "You don't understand how hard it is to X, under circumstances Y!" >>> Well... I *do *understand why it might *feel *hard... but that sounds >>> like an explanation for why you *chose *not to. We aren't talking about >>> how hard it is to run a sub-6-minute mile, or sing an Opera, we are talking >>> about how it can feel hard to call someone out for a racist comment in the >>> middle of a meeting (or something like that). In fact, I often have people >>> come to me before key meetings and ask me to bring up points they don't >>> feel free to bring up. Am I "free" because I find that relatively easy? Are >>> they "not free" because they find it hard? Does it matter that, as Jochen >>> points out, one could certainly look into my and the other person's past, >>> or into my and the other person's physiology, and construct an explanation >>> for why each of us behave-in-meetings the way we do now? Or is it, as >>> Skinner suggested, time to just move "beyond" such questions? >>> >>> >>> >>> <[email protected]> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 4:29 PM Jochen Fromm <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I am reading a book about Leibniz and started to wonder if the hard >>>> problem of consciousness could be the reason why we have the illusion of >>>> free will and can not predict how others will act. >>>> >>>> From the outside a person seems to have free will in principle. From >>>> the inside everybody feels something different and is controlled by >>>> emotions based on subjective experience, which is unknown to others, >>>> because the individual is not transparent and the history is not known. >>>> >>>> Once we investigate the life of a person, for example by a detective as >>>> part of a criminal investigation, or as movie viewers in a cinema, we start >>>> to understand why a person acts they way it does. The more we step into the >>>> footsteps of a person, the better we understand the feelings, goals and >>>> motives. >>>> >>>> Could it be that the same thing which prevents us from understanding >>>> the subjective experiences of others also creates the illusion of free >>>> will? >>>> >>>> -J. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> > > > -- > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > twitter: @merle110 > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > -- Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. Center for Emergent Diplomacy emergentdiplomacy.org Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA mobile: (303) 859-5609 skype: merle.lelfkoff2 twitter: @merle110
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