All you have below, Nick, is both sound and interesting, and at least to the level of a point of view, a position I share. (I won’t take positions on what was important in this or that bit of history of scientific thourght, including endorsing the versions you give below, where I have not studied.)
My motto is one I have heard Glen espouse, though I have my own formulation: “Some things in moderation.” I heard Frank, on this occasion as on indefinitely many before it — FRIAM really is like Nietzche’s eternal recurrence in some ways — pushing back against the assertion “Everything is metaphor, and you don’t get to say otherwise”. So no, you don’t execute people for using metaphors; you forbid them any claim that they are ever doing anything else (or that is how I read many of the emails). To elevate metaphors to a totalizing (or totalitarian) philosophical system, into which everything has to be crammed by a kind of scholastic debate, is I think only possible if you forbid that anything can ever be its own, new, self. I think that is probably a mistake. I don’t know if you believe you are doing it, or whether you are doing it. I make whatever I can of the words that come across the screen, and accept responsibility for errors. My impulse — dull and tedious like much I do — is to lampoon metaphors as a philosophical system to try to get at what I object to. So: English descriptions of mechanics aren’t really a new language; they are English, hence metaphors. But if so: English isn’t really “a” language (indefinite article implying distinctness); it’s just a metaphorical use of porto-West Germanic. So is German. But porto-West Germanic wasn’t really “a” language either; it was a metaphorical use of proto-Indo European; A metaphorical use of proto-Nostratic A metaphorical use of porto-Sapiens Of what….? The System requires absurdity. So alongside the question of What is Not New that guides the analysis of (monomania for?) metaphor, I want to put the other question How can something “be” new? And how do new things come into being? When a thing actually is new, I would like to allow myself to recognize that. For scientific language and practice, I am almost interested enough in this question to try to put a little work into it. One thing I don’t want to pass over, because it is too important and too good: > Do [you] regard your affection for poetry as a sinful indulgence or do you > regard it (as I would) as an essential feature of your scientific > imagination. Neither in the primary role. It’s appreciating being alive, and realizing that with life and literacy, I have open to me the joy of experiencing insights and creations of beauty from across time, place, circumstance, and identity. Each mode, in its own name, has a place, not a servant of anything else. Best, Eric > On May 9, 2021, at 1:02 PM, <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> wrote: > > EricS, > > I hope I am not the metaphor Nazi; I certainly don’t want to be him. I > certainly don’t want to execute anybody for using metaphors. On the > contrary. Rather my point is that they are essential to good thought and > that many scientists who voice contempt for metaphors use them regularly all > the time in ways that are essential to their work. The Pragmatic value of > recognizing that we are using metaphors is that such a recognition leads to a > discussion of whether we are using them well. All metaphors, be it good ones > or bad ones, import “surplus meaning” into the terms of use, and this surplus > meaning can affect scientific thinking for good or ill depending on whether > we acknowledge it and systematically explore its implications. Surplus > meaning is often the wet edge of discovery but some times the hidden > assumption that keeps us from seeing the plain facts before us. The clearest > example of this is the metaphor of natural selection in which Darwin imagined > that nature is like a giant pigeon coop. This metaphor contain contains an > infinity of useful implications and a few that are down right poisonous. > It’s important to know which are which. I think Frank’s example of gravity > is perhaps another great example. Isn’t it one of Einstein’s greatest > insights that the metaphor of attraction implicit in “gravity”, which arose > from experiments with primitive magnets in Newton’s time, is not as useful > in many instances as the metaphor that massive objects warp the space around > them. So, one of Einstein’s great contributions to physics is that he > introduced a new metaphor? Do I have that wrong? > > Do regard your affection for poetry as a sinful indulgence or do you regard > it (as I would) as an essential feature of your scientific imagination. > > I don’t know why it is that moving house seems to free me up to think about > everything but moving house. One is not allowed parting shots in > parliamentary debate, and I probably shouldn’t be taking them here. > > Nick > > > > > Nick Thompson > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,XJhhPJ-oVSl8X4m1HOwWJRzhFdQpyxA1bF6JR4_N6oxF2MP5Qn_sU53PD8ov7bA94VeBYB22Z14WcUI9fxqo8yEX2utlE-B0k02HBDbuyrKCzkMb&typo=1> > > From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On > Behalf Of David Eric Smith > Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 9:13 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis > > English has two categories of verbs: intransitive and transitive. > > If you use an intransitive verb — “yet it moves” — the Metaphor Nazi will > catch you coming: claiming you are representing volition. > > If you use a transitive verb — “it is moved by gravity” — the Metaphor Nazi > will catch you going: claiming an agent/patient relation, where the agent is > probably (metaphorically) God (!), or whatever God is a metaphor for. > > And we have from Ecclesiastes (the verse in praise of the Metaphor Nazi): > http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/59.html#:~:text=If%20there%20be%20nothing%20new%20(1)%3A%20Compare%20Ecclesiastes%201.9,new%20thing%20under%20the%20sun.%22 > > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.shakespeare-online.com%2fsonnets%2f59.html%23%3a~%3atext%3dIf%20there%20be%20nothing%20new%20%281%29%3a%20Compare%20Ecclesiastes%201.9%2cnew%20thing%20under%20the%20sun.%22&c=E,1,3Jr27auXXv3fDam204gK4sg7WCGukhf105TyLUha-RBtqZ4K-YMRv8931y5-6oFd5ZnS6mgE1YeTmw6Ow6g8IalAw6Ks1QwhMH7Mxh7wBGROiw,,&typo=1> > Ecclesiastes 1.9: "The thing that hath been is that which shall be; and that > which hath been done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing > under the sun." > > To which the scientist (note small “s”) would like to assert “the language of > mechanics is not English; speaking it is a new practice available to people > to participate in”. > > But let Shakespeare have the last word: > > If there be nothing new, but that which is > Hath been before, how are our brains beguil'd, > Which, labouring for invention, bear amiss > The second burthen of a former child! > O, that record could with a backward look, > Even of five hundred courses of the sun, > Show me your image in some antique book, > Since mind at first in character was done! > That I might see what the old world could say > To this composed wonder of your frame; > Whether we are mended, or whe'r better they, > Or whether revolution be the same. > O! sure I am, the wits of former days > To subjects worse have given admiring praise. > > > Eric > > > > >> On May 9, 2021, at 11:36 AM, Prof David West <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> The ball accelerated is clearly a metaphor as it implies that the ball is >> doing a specific thing, that the ball has behavior and probably volition. >> This is clearly not what you literally mean. >> >> davew >> >> >> On Sat, May 8, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: >>> "The ball accelerated at approximately 32 feet per second squared at sea >>> level in a vacuum." >>> >>> doesn't seem to be a metaphor to me. >>> >>> --- >>> Frank C. Wimberly >>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>> >>> 505 670-9918 >>> Santa Fe, NM >>> >>> On Sat, May 8, 2021, 3:07 PM <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> Listen, Fella! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It’s metaphors all the way down! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [shoe thrown] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> n >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nick Thompson >>>> >>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,76cwsDofsJZfToBxaQU6zR5cllp_k59wtln_iQtSrD8ozjyEN9kt0FPUs4RnuGnWMKFW-nOw3wJjMgAgCJAkSTlh3C3YKbI75yNyUMUvvw,,&typo=1> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 1:36 PM >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> First of all, it's just a metaphor (ducking, the shoe barely missing my >>>> head) :-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Second of all, that description of animal development sure sounds to me >>>> like "following a script". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 2:23 PM <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This struck me: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> When animals develop, they don’t follow a script. Instead, responding to >>>>> their environment, the cells negotiate and feel their way toward a final >>>>> form. A fertilized egg divides, and divides again, creating a hollow ball >>>>> of cells called a blastula; genes instruct these cells to release >>>>> chemicals, and other cells, reacting to those chemical concentrations, >>>>> decide to migrate elsewhere or to develop into specific types of tissue. >>>>> Other influences—oxygen, nutrients, hormones, sometimes toxins—further >>>>> shape gestation. >>>>> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd678d924c17c104801f684&cndid=40835928&hasha=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679&hashb=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7&hashc=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd678d924c17c104801f684&cndid=40835928&hasha=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679&hashb=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7&hashc=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> First, note the reliance on psychological terms. This is the sort of >>>>> passage that would stimulate my teasing Hywel with, “So you see, Hywel, >>>>> psychology really IS the mother of all sciences.” And don’t any of you >>>>> DARE to come back at me with, “It’s just a metaphor.” >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Second, which of these two models encapsulates more closely what you >>>>> wizards mean by computation. Is carrying out an algorithm more like >>>>> “computation” or is “building a limb”? Is a salamander’s limb “computed”? >>>>> If so, who computes it, or is that a violation of the language of >>>>> computation. I know. Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Your loyal fool, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Nic >>>>> >>>>> Nick Thompson >>>>> >>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,kvyM80dHEYWNqV-0eMQdLvzgq9gnoqHZgBnwovx7X25DXpFtBFHjG7rHeqhcFUSqxlCOPKZ_ChyYYA8MEuyB_a_FRcYGgZ_JxXKUF1U4Ncx44i5dHnfxik87XZ1D&typo=1> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,3Sznyb7BegxvJj-W6slkoO2f1XtEbDHhCi3tmPNYOYGO8G4bQHxL3OeYztOXD0Jnkqfg--n0b4oTs0_5hn0ZjLwY1S5d_w88ooKTK69YtiTBeWLt0H7XZAvPaw,,&typo=1> >>>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,e7ikCvmqxBFRYzTHP3wOgCmQsYRmef0a4GwLJQ2quoUnNgQbOEU2NdEDy_DQg9r4aZne4Sk-Ajx_PT1S_t2ucEEUCxuMaJ722nwe5JgbcETp0SxouOocvw,,&typo=1> >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,wFK_q-m91VEHsGMYUpaUNfuzpPV5AzYSI5vB9CyFVHgeYqhgOQ1g3KZmGO1JgHxK-aOZ8gOArzf_3L7A6ibm_7MhZTpVoU7l34UrOaxFG4c,&typo=1> >>>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> - 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