That’s a great start. I have no objection at all to your reformed sentence.
I think this will be a 12-step program. In one of the later stages, you will have to practice writing sentences to Frank about gravitation that don’t contain “metaphor for”. I realize I am exhausted from the last 3 days of being a pedant, and it is time to stop. So no slight that I will drop this one now. I need to work quietly and see if it is possible to feel clean again. Eric > On May 9, 2021, at 2:24 PM, <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Oh, Gosh. I am once again being dope=slapped by my totalizing language. > Please forgive. It is the baby brother clamoring for attention. Better you > got to me before Glen did, with his “scalesome, flailsome tail”. > > Would I have done better by my thoughts had I written, “Metaphors are more > fundamental to scientific discourse than many suppose, and certainly do not > deserve the contempt that these many accord them”? > > n > > Nick Thompson > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,idiiKHagp8Yr8sUZNJNaoDW-A6YPfI1hIG1MoFID7yVAmVGgzraH9rkaDJc08vOMrZWjxtwvpJVE0uk6J69UotcY8_Fw8F26q1y7anVNfnPsNgXxui8s_zs,&typo=1> > > From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On > Behalf Of David Eric Smith > Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 10:47 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis > > All you have below, Nick, is both sound and interesting, and at least to the > level of a point of view, a position I share. (I won’t take positions on > what was important in this or that bit of history of scientific thourght, > including endorsing the versions you give below, where I have not studied.) > > My motto is one I have heard Glen espouse, though I have my own formulation: > > “Some things in moderation.” > > I heard Frank, on this occasion as on indefinitely many before it — FRIAM > really is like Nietzche’s eternal recurrence in some ways — pushing back > against the assertion “Everything is metaphor, and you don’t get to say > otherwise”. So no, you don’t execute people for using metaphors; you forbid > them any claim that they are ever doing anything else (or that is how I read > many of the emails). > > To elevate metaphors to a totalizing (or totalitarian) philosophical system, > into which everything has to be crammed by a kind of scholastic debate, is I > think only possible if you forbid that anything can ever be its own, new, > self. I think that is probably a mistake. I don’t know if you believe you > are doing it, or whether you are doing it. I make whatever I can of the > words that come across the screen, and accept responsibility for errors. > > My impulse — dull and tedious like much I do — is to lampoon metaphors as a > philosophical system to try to get at what I object to. So: > > English descriptions of mechanics aren’t really a new language; they are > English, hence metaphors. > But if so: > English isn’t really “a” language (indefinite article implying distinctness); > it’s just a metaphorical use of porto-West Germanic. So is German. > But porto-West Germanic wasn’t really “a” language either; it was a > metaphorical use of proto-Indo European; > A metaphorical use of proto-Nostratic > A metaphorical use of porto-Sapiens > Of what….? > > The System requires absurdity. > > So alongside the question of What is Not New that guides the analysis of > (monomania for?) metaphor, I want to put the other question How can something > “be” new? And how do new things come into being? When a thing actually is > new, I would like to allow myself to recognize that. > > For scientific language and practice, I am almost interested enough in this > question to try to put a little work into it. > > > One thing I don’t want to pass over, because it is too important and too good: > >> Do [you] regard your affection for poetry as a sinful indulgence or do you >> regard it (as I would) as an essential feature of your scientific >> imagination. > > Neither in the primary role. > > It’s appreciating being alive, and realizing that with life and literacy, I > have open to me the joy of experiencing insights and creations of beauty from > across time, place, circumstance, and identity. Each mode, in its own name, > has a place, not a servant of anything else. > > Best, > > Eric > > > > > >> On May 9, 2021, at 1:02 PM, <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> EricS, >> >> I hope I am not the metaphor Nazi; I certainly don’t want to be him. I >> certainly don’t want to execute anybody for using metaphors. On the >> contrary. Rather my point is that they are essential to good thought and >> that many scientists who voice contempt for metaphors use them regularly all >> the time in ways that are essential to their work. The Pragmatic value of >> recognizing that we are using metaphors is that such a recognition leads to >> a discussion of whether we are using them well. All metaphors, be it good >> ones or bad ones, import “surplus meaning” into the terms of use, and this >> surplus meaning can affect scientific thinking for good or ill depending on >> whether we acknowledge it and systematically explore its implications. >> Surplus meaning is often the wet edge of discovery but some times the hidden >> assumption that keeps us from seeing the plain facts before us. The >> clearest example of this is the metaphor of natural selection in which >> Darwin imagined that nature is like a giant pigeon coop. This metaphor >> contain contains an infinity of useful implications and a few that are down >> right poisonous. It’s important to know which are which. I think Frank’s >> example of gravity is perhaps another great example. Isn’t it one of >> Einstein’s greatest insights that the metaphor of attraction implicit in >> “gravity”, which arose from experiments with primitive magnets in Newton’s >> time, is not as useful in many instances as the metaphor that massive >> objects warp the space around them. So, one of Einstein’s great >> contributions to physics is that he introduced a new metaphor? Do I have >> that wrong? >> >> Do regard your affection for poetry as a sinful indulgence or do you regard >> it (as I would) as an essential feature of your scientific imagination. >> >> I don’t know why it is that moving house seems to free me up to think about >> everything but moving house. One is not allowed parting shots in >> parliamentary debate, and I probably shouldn’t be taking them here. >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> >> Nick Thompson >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,XJhhPJ-oVSl8X4m1HOwWJRzhFdQpyxA1bF6JR4_N6oxF2MP5Qn_sU53PD8ov7bA94VeBYB22Z14WcUI9fxqo8yEX2utlE-B0k02HBDbuyrKCzkMb&typo=1> >> >> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith >> Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 9:13 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis >> >> English has two categories of verbs: intransitive and transitive. >> >> If you use an intransitive verb — “yet it moves” — the Metaphor Nazi will >> catch you coming: claiming you are representing volition. >> >> If you use a transitive verb — “it is moved by gravity” — the Metaphor Nazi >> will catch you going: claiming an agent/patient relation, where the agent is >> probably (metaphorically) God (!), or whatever God is a metaphor for. >> >> And we have from Ecclesiastes (the verse in praise of the Metaphor Nazi): >> http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/59.html#:~:text=If%20there%20be%20nothing%20new%20(1)%3A%20Compare%20Ecclesiastes%201.9,new%20thing%20under%20the%20sun.%22 >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.shakespeare-online.com%2fsonnets%2f59.html%23%3a~%3atext%3dIf%20there%20be%20nothing%20new%20%281%29%3a%20Compare%20Ecclesiastes%201.9%2cnew%20thing%20under%20the%20sun.%22&c=E,1,3Jr27auXXv3fDam204gK4sg7WCGukhf105TyLUha-RBtqZ4K-YMRv8931y5-6oFd5ZnS6mgE1YeTmw6Ow6g8IalAw6Ks1QwhMH7Mxh7wBGROiw,,&typo=1> >> Ecclesiastes 1.9: "The thing that hath been is that which shall be; and that >> which hath been done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing >> under the sun." >> >> To which the scientist (note small “s”) would like to assert “the language >> of mechanics is not English; speaking it is a new practice available to >> people to participate in”. >> >> But let Shakespeare have the last word: >> >> If there be nothing new, but that which is >> Hath been before, how are our brains beguil'd, >> Which, labouring for invention, bear amiss >> The second burthen of a former child! >> O, that record could with a backward look, >> Even of five hundred courses of the sun, >> Show me your image in some antique book, >> Since mind at first in character was done! >> That I might see what the old world could say >> To this composed wonder of your frame; >> Whether we are mended, or whe'r better they, >> Or whether revolution be the same. >> O! sure I am, the wits of former days >> To subjects worse have given admiring praise. >> >> >> >> Eric >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On May 9, 2021, at 11:36 AM, Prof David West <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> The ball accelerated is clearly a metaphor as it implies that the ball is >>> doing a specific thing, that the ball has behavior and probably volition. >>> This is clearly not what you literally mean. >>> >>> davew >>> >>> >>> On Sat, May 8, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: >>>> "The ball accelerated at approximately 32 feet per second squared at sea >>>> level in a vacuum." >>>> >>>> doesn't seem to be a metaphor to me. >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Frank C. Wimberly >>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>>> >>>> 505 670-9918 >>>> Santa Fe, NM >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 8, 2021, 3:07 PM <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> Listen, Fella! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It’s metaphors all the way down! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> [shoe thrown] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> n >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Nick Thompson >>>>> >>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,76cwsDofsJZfToBxaQU6zR5cllp_k59wtln_iQtSrD8ozjyEN9kt0FPUs4RnuGnWMKFW-nOw3wJjMgAgCJAkSTlh3C3YKbI75yNyUMUvvw,,&typo=1> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Friam <[email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz >>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 1:36 PM >>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> First of all, it's just a metaphor (ducking, the shoe barely missing my >>>>> head) :-) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Second of all, that description of animal development sure sounds to me >>>>> like "following a script". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 2:23 PM <[email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This struck me: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> When animals develop, they don’t follow a script. Instead, responding to >>>>>> their environment, the cells negotiate and feel their way toward a final >>>>>> form. A fertilized egg divides, and divides again, creating a hollow >>>>>> ball of cells called a blastula; genes instruct these cells to release >>>>>> chemicals, and other cells, reacting to those chemical concentrations, >>>>>> decide to migrate elsewhere or to develop into specific types of tissue. >>>>>> Other influences—oxygen, nutrients, hormones, sometimes toxins—further >>>>>> shape gestation. >>>>>> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd678d924c17c104801f684&cndid=40835928&hasha=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679&hashb=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7&hashc=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd678d924c17c104801f684&cndid=40835928&hasha=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679&hashb=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7&hashc=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> First, note the reliance on psychological terms. This is the sort of >>>>>> passage that would stimulate my teasing Hywel with, “So you see, Hywel, >>>>>> psychology really IS the mother of all sciences.” And don’t any of you >>>>>> DARE to come back at me with, “It’s just a metaphor.” >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Second, which of these two models encapsulates more closely what you >>>>>> wizards mean by computation. Is carrying out an algorithm more like >>>>>> “computation” or is “building a limb”? Is a salamander’s limb >>>>>> “computed”? If so, who computes it, or is that a violation of the >>>>>> language of computation. I know. Fools rush in where wise men fear to >>>>>> tread. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Your loyal fool, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Nic >>>>>> >>>>>> Nick Thompson >>>>>> >>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,kvyM80dHEYWNqV-0eMQdLvzgq9gnoqHZgBnwovx7X25DXpFtBFHjG7rHeqhcFUSqxlCOPKZ_ChyYYA8MEuyB_a_FRcYGgZ_JxXKUF1U4Ncx44i5dHnfxik87XZ1D&typo=1> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,3Sznyb7BegxvJj-W6slkoO2f1XtEbDHhCi3tmPNYOYGO8G4bQHxL3OeYztOXD0Jnkqfg--n0b4oTs0_5hn0ZjLwY1S5d_w88ooKTK69YtiTBeWLt0H7XZAvPaw,,&typo=1> >>>>>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,e7ikCvmqxBFRYzTHP3wOgCmQsYRmef0a4GwLJQ2quoUnNgQbOEU2NdEDy_DQg9r4aZne4Sk-Ajx_PT1S_t2ucEEUCxuMaJ722nwe5JgbcETp0SxouOocvw,,&typo=1> >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,wFK_q-m91VEHsGMYUpaUNfuzpPV5AzYSI5vB9CyFVHgeYqhgOQ1g3KZmGO1JgHxK-aOZ8gOArzf_3L7A6ibm_7MhZTpVoU7l34UrOaxFG4c,&typo=1> >>>>>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - 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