Am I the only one who thinks all higher education (before grad school--and maybe even that too) should be free in a rich democratic (sort of) society? I'm not sure how to avoid the issue of who gets to go--merit is the sticky wicket. I also think we need to re-institute the draft. Both of these initiatives might help to even things out.
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 10:38 AM Barry MacKichan < [email protected]> wrote: > I can endorse both Sandel’s *Tyrrany of Merit* and Wilkerson’s *Caste*. > Also I highly recommend Wilkerson’s earlier book, *The Warmth of Other > Suns* about the great migration in the early 20th century of blacks from > the south to the north and California. An interesting factoid is how > important Lordsburg was to those going to California. > > I haven’t decided what to *do* with the knowledge I got from these books, > but it is hard to ignore it. > > —Barry > > On 2 Jul 2021, at 21:33, [email protected] wrote: > > EricS, > > > > Have you looked at Sandel’s *Tyranny of Merit* or Wilkerson’s *Caste*? > > > > If on thinks hard enough about “merit” it becomes deeply confusing. The > idea of Merit is something that I got on my own, right? So working back > from now to birth whence exactly did I get that merit. Even what I got > from my genes was random right. At what point do get to embrace my merit > as of my own making? So far as me, myself, is concerned, it’s all luck all > the way down. That is what the declaration of independence means when it > says that all [humans] are created equal. > > > > Nick > > > > Nick Thompson > > [email protected] > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith > *Sent:* Friday, July 2, 2021 7:47 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] of straw and steel > > > > I think there is some version of this for college tuitions, too, though I > am partly muddy-headed and what I say next will probably fail the logical > map at some points. > > > > The general idea is some combination of what is in Ginsberg’s book > > https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Faculty-Benjamin-Ginsberg/dp/0199975434 > > but even more so in some article I read in J. Higher Ed or something > (which I have not succeeded in finding and I need now for other projects), > to the effect that: > > > > 1. There is been a massive cumulative re-allocation of money out of > need-based grants and to merit-based scholarships over the past 40 years or > so. > > 2. Sounds good, of course: who could be against rewarding merit. > > 3. Except that, de facto, what one largely rewards is preparation, which > is a proxy for parental wealth and membership in one of the culture’s > preferred classes, races, regions, or what-have-you. The part of this that > I am pretty sure is in Ginsberg is also fishing for parental wealth by > building snazzy student centers, on-campus water parks, etc. All that at > enormous cost. The punchline of all this is that WHEN THE BUSINESSMEN TAKE > OVER THE CONCEPT OF THE UNIVERSITY, THE UNIVERSITY BECOMES A BUSINESS. So, > monies spent, such as tuition deferment whether called grant or > scholarships, is in their worldview VENTURE CAPITAL. (That was what was in > the JHE article.) And the return that venture capital is seeking is > parental tuition money. > > > > So how does this map to Glen’s EricC’s comments: The nominal tuition is > very high (4x what it was in the 1970s, per faculty actually teaching or > doing research). That high tuition isn’t actually cost-received from most > parents, because a significant fraction of it was spent either giving their > kids scholarships, building water parks and student centers, or whatever. > However: if they had given it in need-based grants, they wouldn’t be > getting _anything_ from the parents. So in the businessman’s world, the > investment gathered a maximized monetary profit, which was the criterion > for how to make it. > > > > As in EricC’s point below, there will be some very rich parents with kids > so lazy or dull that they aren’t well-prepared even with opportunities, so > one can’t give them scholarships, and those will pay the sticker price. > Those are the ones who buy the article at $19, or medical products or > services at list price. High profit but small margin on them. > > > > > > In all the recent and ongoing conversations about tuition jubilee or free > college in the US, I worry that everything real and solvable gets ruled out > before we ever start, because the above characterization of the real > business model isn’t front and center. Not very different for medical > products and services (I am trying not to use the completely bleached > expression “health care”), though that has been around long enough that a > fuller story is not so uncommon to find. > > > > It is right that we have mortgaged a whole generation of kids with > unplayable tuition loans, and probably somebody should eat that cost. Kind > of like when German banks bought junk mortgage bonds in the US, they should > actually have been allowed to fail for having not done due diligence, > rather than being bailed out by a government that then had to get the money > to float them by leaning on somebody else (the Irish, the Italians). That > of course doesn’t really work for the reasons correctly given in Minsky’s > Ratchet > > > https://www.amazon.com/Stabilizing-Unstable-Economy-Hyman-Minsky/dp/0071592997 > > But the threat of it somehow should be used, while the problem is > building, to keep the banks doing due diligence, and to stop the schools > from hiking tuition and spending to profit on the margin, or medical > products and services skyrocketing as a negotiating point against insurance > companies, etc. The system either gets fixed as a system, or not at all. > > > > There must be a really great book somewhere, which gets the data and the > economics better than I can, and also explains this clearly enough that it > can be an everyman’s book. It’s messy and a bait indirect, but it’s not so > hard as to be incomprehensible. Does anybody know such a book? > > > > Eric > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2021, at 5:51 AM, Eric Charles <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Something Glen's analysis, there are MANY things in the modern economy > that fit things model, including healthcare. > > > > The insurance companies demand a steep discount in procedures. > > The hospital's have costs to cover. > > The only possible consequence is to dramatically increase the sticker > price. There hospital doesn't expect someone to pay that much for a major > procedure, they expect bulk buyers (i.e., insurance companies) to drive > buisness at ther bulk price. (If some random person does pay sticker price > every so often, all the better, but that's not ther primary goal.) > > > > Mattress companies, clothing stores, etc. that have massive sales 3/4th > of the year are doing the same sort of thing. > > > > See also my continuous complaints about the "Big Mac Index". Only a small > % of Big Macs in the U.S. are purchased at sicker price. The sticker price > is primarily intended as something to discount off of. > > > > On Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 10:56 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ <[email protected]> wrote: > > Maybe. But remember, despite the prescriptive linguists out there: a) > "troll" is not an insult and b) it can be accidental. > > All 3 of Russ' "people with grants", Barry's "rent seeking", and Pieter's > "publishing profits are bad for science" responses are a trawler's delight! > Rather than talk about the Strawman fallacy and it's variations, we're > talking ... [sigh] again ... about capitalism and money. > > Call it naivete if you want. But it was a very effective troll. > > On 6/30/21 7:47 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > Oh, I see. The point is to make getting the individual item so > expensive that it just balances driving to the library (or doing ILL) with > subscribing to the Journal. It's pure manipulation; costs have nothing to > do with it. > > > > Glen, I think you persistently confuse naivete with trolling. > > -- > ☤>$ uǝlƃ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,vtRPbIZSETq04zfwBbWd3LYgUEX1_KVE5DcT3mtOL0SUmtcNgiuRfSEtck56qg7m3SnmFC3lSfs6z_jbuzlSSjGMph1_Fw4WC1fnmMxDpavMvjhh7Dm8&typo=1> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,i03FuP6wZL5Em3ggAffAeArKn4MhX9W3s2eW9P5IKi9VS1f17w-ZtKxuIBfNkBp2huMk2ukG57vHFz4NGsZsawZABdXbmbrBusUQoTXf6Q,,&typo=1> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,p5H6LHrQ4hv950XQsirPOHZwVPIquBhDYGnjW3EenApAzKoM10ga1B6cO5g_J7hWvz6wUvPWXFc_H3SeVhXKv1EKxyCb7fD3Wn1r7pUO_tRHvnoJ&typo=1> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,ejvpu3P2__Ts5Rr739RVpxF3vN-R7967EAtFeYL76vfx9QUdqw4lWXY1mwNOLKTw9b1Nr97hF6naL9Kl9g-YB3XQAufNCt2PWiVq7Syn3--nLrXt5MpTLZ0u&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,ZjZ63z6kUldm120MBYXD8YdOu2LSLbqQeU4EQNtcre3l1ShWItR0mO9KRw_ML9kJNZuEcyNFL22zJWPdpnuCTHJwTmz0JAu2ocnTqeV6ZLNExmqYkKnk8K4Q4CAw&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > -- Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. Center for Emergent Diplomacy emergentdiplomacy.org Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA mobile: (303) 859-5609 skype: merle.lelfkoff2 twitter: @merle110
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