I never paid significant $$ for any of the 4 graduate programs I was enrolled in. In those days it was said that if you could be admitted you would get a fellowship or assistantship which would cover your tuition and provide a small stipend. I had a wife and kid throughout.
Have things changed? Note that I only had experience with STEM programs. I am sure it was different for professional programs like law and medicine. What about humanities programs? My daughter had some kind of assistantship in a graduate program in Latin American Literature in 1987 or so. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 1:14 PM Merle Lefkoff <[email protected]> wrote: > Am I the only one who thinks all higher education (before grad school--and > maybe even that too) should be free in a rich democratic (sort of) > society? I'm not sure how to avoid the issue of who gets to go--merit is > the sticky wicket. I also think we need to re-institute the draft. Both > of these initiatives might help to even things out. > > On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 10:38 AM Barry MacKichan < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I can endorse both Sandel’s *Tyrrany of Merit* and Wilkerson’s *Caste*. >> Also I highly recommend Wilkerson’s earlier book, *The Warmth of Other >> Suns* about the great migration in the early 20th century of blacks from >> the south to the north and California. An interesting factoid is how >> important Lordsburg was to those going to California. >> >> I haven’t decided what to *do* with the knowledge I got from these >> books, but it is hard to ignore it. >> >> —Barry >> >> On 2 Jul 2021, at 21:33, [email protected] wrote: >> >> EricS, >> >> >> >> Have you looked at Sandel’s *Tyranny of Merit* or Wilkerson’s *Caste*? >> >> >> >> If on thinks hard enough about “merit” it becomes deeply confusing. The >> idea of Merit is something that I got on my own, right? So working back >> from now to birth whence exactly did I get that merit. Even what I got >> from my genes was random right. At what point do get to embrace my merit >> as of my own making? So far as me, myself, is concerned, it’s all luck all >> the way down. That is what the declaration of independence means when it >> says that all [humans] are created equal. >> >> >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> Nick Thompson >> >> [email protected] >> >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> >> >> >> *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith >> *Sent:* Friday, July 2, 2021 7:47 PM >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >> [email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] of straw and steel >> >> >> >> I think there is some version of this for college tuitions, too, though I >> am partly muddy-headed and what I say next will probably fail the logical >> map at some points. >> >> >> >> The general idea is some combination of what is in Ginsberg’s book >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Faculty-Benjamin-Ginsberg/dp/0199975434 >> >> but even more so in some article I read in J. Higher Ed or something >> (which I have not succeeded in finding and I need now for other projects), >> to the effect that: >> >> >> >> 1. There is been a massive cumulative re-allocation of money out of >> need-based grants and to merit-based scholarships over the past 40 years or >> so. >> >> 2. Sounds good, of course: who could be against rewarding merit. >> >> 3. Except that, de facto, what one largely rewards is preparation, which >> is a proxy for parental wealth and membership in one of the culture’s >> preferred classes, races, regions, or what-have-you. The part of this that >> I am pretty sure is in Ginsberg is also fishing for parental wealth by >> building snazzy student centers, on-campus water parks, etc. All that at >> enormous cost. The punchline of all this is that WHEN THE BUSINESSMEN TAKE >> OVER THE CONCEPT OF THE UNIVERSITY, THE UNIVERSITY BECOMES A BUSINESS. So, >> monies spent, such as tuition deferment whether called grant or >> scholarships, is in their worldview VENTURE CAPITAL. (That was what was in >> the JHE article.) And the return that venture capital is seeking is >> parental tuition money. >> >> >> >> So how does this map to Glen’s EricC’s comments: The nominal tuition is >> very high (4x what it was in the 1970s, per faculty actually teaching or >> doing research). That high tuition isn’t actually cost-received from most >> parents, because a significant fraction of it was spent either giving their >> kids scholarships, building water parks and student centers, or whatever. >> However: if they had given it in need-based grants, they wouldn’t be >> getting _anything_ from the parents. So in the businessman’s world, the >> investment gathered a maximized monetary profit, which was the criterion >> for how to make it. >> >> >> >> As in EricC’s point below, there will be some very rich parents with kids >> so lazy or dull that they aren’t well-prepared even with opportunities, so >> one can’t give them scholarships, and those will pay the sticker price. >> Those are the ones who buy the article at $19, or medical products or >> services at list price. High profit but small margin on them. >> >> >> >> >> >> In all the recent and ongoing conversations about tuition jubilee or free >> college in the US, I worry that everything real and solvable gets ruled out >> before we ever start, because the above characterization of the real >> business model isn’t front and center. Not very different for medical >> products and services (I am trying not to use the completely bleached >> expression “health care”), though that has been around long enough that a >> fuller story is not so uncommon to find. >> >> >> >> It is right that we have mortgaged a whole generation of kids with >> unplayable tuition loans, and probably somebody should eat that cost. Kind >> of like when German banks bought junk mortgage bonds in the US, they should >> actually have been allowed to fail for having not done due diligence, >> rather than being bailed out by a government that then had to get the money >> to float them by leaning on somebody else (the Irish, the Italians). That >> of course doesn’t really work for the reasons correctly given in Minsky’s >> Ratchet >> >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Stabilizing-Unstable-Economy-Hyman-Minsky/dp/0071592997 >> >> But the threat of it somehow should be used, while the problem is >> building, to keep the banks doing due diligence, and to stop the schools >> from hiking tuition and spending to profit on the margin, or medical >> products and services skyrocketing as a negotiating point against insurance >> companies, etc. The system either gets fixed as a system, or not at all. >> >> >> >> There must be a really great book somewhere, which gets the data and the >> economics better than I can, and also explains this clearly enough that it >> can be an everyman’s book. It’s messy and a bait indirect, but it’s not so >> hard as to be incomprehensible. Does anybody know such a book? >> >> >> >> Eric >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 3, 2021, at 5:51 AM, Eric Charles <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Something Glen's analysis, there are MANY things in the modern economy >> that fit things model, including healthcare. >> >> >> >> The insurance companies demand a steep discount in procedures. >> >> The hospital's have costs to cover. >> >> The only possible consequence is to dramatically increase the sticker >> price. There hospital doesn't expect someone to pay that much for a major >> procedure, they expect bulk buyers (i.e., insurance companies) to drive >> buisness at ther bulk price. (If some random person does pay sticker price >> every so often, all the better, but that's not ther primary goal.) >> >> >> >> Mattress companies, clothing stores, etc. that have massive sales 3/4th >> of the year are doing the same sort of thing. >> >> >> >> See also my continuous complaints about the "Big Mac Index". Only a small >> % of Big Macs in the U.S. are purchased at sicker price. The sticker price >> is primarily intended as something to discount off of. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 10:56 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Maybe. But remember, despite the prescriptive linguists out there: a) >> "troll" is not an insult and b) it can be accidental. >> >> All 3 of Russ' "people with grants", Barry's "rent seeking", and Pieter's >> "publishing profits are bad for science" responses are a trawler's delight! >> Rather than talk about the Strawman fallacy and it's variations, we're >> talking ... [sigh] again ... about capitalism and money. >> >> Call it naivete if you want. But it was a very effective troll. >> >> On 6/30/21 7:47 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> > Oh, I see. The point is to make getting the individual item so >> expensive that it just balances driving to the library (or doing ILL) with >> subscribing to the Journal. It's pure manipulation; costs have nothing to >> do with it. >> > >> > Glen, I think you persistently confuse naivete with trolling. >> >> -- >> ☤>$ uǝlƃ >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,vtRPbIZSETq04zfwBbWd3LYgUEX1_KVE5DcT3mtOL0SUmtcNgiuRfSEtck56qg7m3SnmFC3lSfs6z_jbuzlSSjGMph1_Fw4WC1fnmMxDpavMvjhh7Dm8&typo=1> >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,i03FuP6wZL5Em3ggAffAeArKn4MhX9W3s2eW9P5IKi9VS1f17w-ZtKxuIBfNkBp2huMk2ukG57vHFz4NGsZsawZABdXbmbrBusUQoTXf6Q,,&typo=1> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,p5H6LHrQ4hv950XQsirPOHZwVPIquBhDYGnjW3EenApAzKoM10ga1B6cO5g_J7hWvz6wUvPWXFc_H3SeVhXKv1EKxyCb7fD3Wn1r7pUO_tRHvnoJ&typo=1> >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,ejvpu3P2__Ts5Rr739RVpxF3vN-R7967EAtFeYL76vfx9QUdqw4lWXY1mwNOLKTw9b1Nr97hF6naL9Kl9g-YB3XQAufNCt2PWiVq7Syn3--nLrXt5MpTLZ0u&typo=1 >> FRIAM-COMIC >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,ZjZ63z6kUldm120MBYXD8YdOu2LSLbqQeU4EQNtcre3l1ShWItR0mO9KRw_ML9kJNZuEcyNFL22zJWPdpnuCTHJwTmz0JAu2ocnTqeV6ZLNExmqYkKnk8K4Q4CAw&typo=1 >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> >> >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> > > > -- > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > twitter: @merle110 > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >
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