So Nick's point is you don't call an unborn child a "baby". Or a "child".
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 9:36 AM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes. > > On Sep 11, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > *we can stop arguing about this for ever. How ‘bout that?* > > > Agreed! But what will we talk about? :-) > > One question which I am asking sincerely. Can amniocentesis detect Down > syndrome? > > Come back safely, Nick. > > Frank > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 9:13 AM <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> > Wimberly's Conjecture: There is no correct, reductionist explanation >> of consciousness. >> >> >> >> Well, depends on what you mean by reduction. If you limit reduction to >> accounts in terms of events at lower levels or organization, then I >> absolutely agree, and we can stop arguing about this for ever. How ‘bout >> that? >> >> >> >> Nick Thompson >> >> [email protected] >> >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> >> >> >> *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly >> *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 4:18 PM >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >> [email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur >> >> >> >> 😁 >> >> --- >> Frank C. Wimberly >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> >> 505 670-9918 >> Santa Fe, NM >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 1:22 PM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> I should have known to hide the drugs from the addicts. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 12:16 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur >> >> It's your fault for focusing on reading ability instead of some less >> subjective trait. Had you focused on, say, tool use < >> https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/our-intelligent-ancestor-neanderthal> >> or somesuch, then we may not have gone there. ... Aaaaa, who am I kidding? >> We always go there. >> >> On 9/10/21 12:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> > How did we get started on consciousness again? The thread started >> with some snark about the power of GWAS associations.. >> > >> > >> > >> > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Frank >> > Wimberly >> > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 11:56 AM >> > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> > <[email protected]> >> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur >> > >> > >> > >> > Wimberly's Conjecture: There is no correct, reductionist explanation >> of consciousness. >> > >> > --- >> > Frank C. Wimberly >> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> > Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> > >> > 505 670-9918 >> > Santa Fe, NM >> > >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 11:44 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ <[email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]>> wrote: >> > >> > It's no more profound than any other multi-order composition. It's >> part of the work we have to do for mechanistic modeling of higher order >> constructs. What galls me is that we can talk about it so much without >> discussing the mechanisms of construction. >> > >> > The details of composing from genes, through physiological >> structures, through interoception, to very high order attributes like >> "reading ability" are interesting, regardless of any profundity. But some >> of us need to be reminded of how the details build the narrative. Like >> Magic Eye pictures, the Necker cube, or the lady/vase thing, what might >> seem banal without the larger frame can seem profound when the discourse is >> enlarged ... when it all snaps into place. >> > >> > >> > On 9/10/21 10:25 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> > > Fine, the goal is some composition of functions and it is all >> interdependent. >> > > >> > > Sure. Of course. Why is this so profound to y’all? >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > *From:* Friam <[email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]>> *On Behalf Of *[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> > > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 10:20 AM >> > > *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Which takes us back to thermostats, intentionality, intensional >> inexistence, Sober’s epiphomenator, spandrels, and Lorenz’s law: The goal >> is never the function. If you build a bird that measures competing male >> robins in terms of “brown stick with red fluff” you eventually get an >> ethologist who gets that bird to attack by providing only brown sticks with >> red fluff. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > See. It’s all connected. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Nick >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Nick Thompson >> > > >> > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto: >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > > >> > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ < >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> < >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ < >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > *From:* Friam <[email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]>>> *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith >> > > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 12:30 PM >> > > *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto: >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Sometimes all you need is a good aphorism >> > > >> > > https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law < >> https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law> < >> https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law < >> https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law>> >> > > >> > > or maybe boost it up with a cartoon >> > > >> > > https://sketchplanations.com/ <https://sketchplanations.com/> >> <https://sketchplanations.com/ <https://sketchplanations.com/>> >> > > >> > > I can't help but wonder if there's an analog of Goodhart's >> law lurking, here. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On September 9, 2021 2:31:39 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels < >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto: >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> > > >> > > Or they are reprogramming their people to be smarter! >> > > >> > > (Actually, deCODE is owned by Amgen now.) >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Selection is already occurring, so it isn't as if this is >> some sci-fi thing. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/ >> < >> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/> >> < >> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/ >> < >> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/ >> >> >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > >> > > From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]>> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith >> > > >> > > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 2:12 PM >> > > >> > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto:[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > > >> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Aha! This is why Iceland has the highest per-capita >> fraction of published authors in the world. I had assumed it was the >> weather…. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 2:17 AM, Marcus Daniels < >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto: >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > That can be screened as well with a large >> population-wide survey such has been done in the UK or Iceland. >> > > >> > > Of course, it is unlikely that complex behaviors will >> be governed by isolated mutations, so the task is to look for highly >> predictive motifs (e.g. regular expressions). >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > >> > > From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> > > >> > > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 10:12 AM >> > > >> > > To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > > >> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Ha! Now you're trolling. The answer is: "because the >> sites that generate reading ability (or whatever) *also* generate other >> 'abilities'", with "abilities" in scare quotes because many abilities are >> considered bad ... like the ability of a pimply faced white dude to shoot >> up a church or blow up a federal building. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > In addition to polyphenism, there's robustness. If >> more than 1 site generates the same functional ability (reading), then do >> we write them all? ... just one of them? ... a probabilistically predictive >> handful of them? >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On 9/9/21 10:00 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> > > >> > > So find the sites that correspond to reading >> ability, or whatever, and WRITE them. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > >> > > From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ >> > > >> > > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 9:51 AM >> > > >> > > To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > > >> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > I was alerted to this article this morning: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Can Progressives Be Convinced That Genetics >> Matters? >> > > >> > > >> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con < >> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con> < >> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con < >> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con>> >> > > >> > > v >> > > >> > > inced-that-genetics-matters >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > It should delight those amongst us who rant about >> the "woke". 8^D But it dovetails nicely with the fraught concept of >> equality in the other thread. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Coincidentally, also on 9/6, the BIAPT announced >> their early career prize winner Emily McTernan: >> > > >> > > >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo < >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo> < >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo < >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo>> >> > > >> > > rpoliticalthought.ac.uk < >> http://rpoliticalthought.ac.uk >> >%2fbiapt-2021-early-care&c=E,1,Je9MVNdO8lpJQOd >> > > >> > > >> 6fZwUNe-4z5yuFq0upxNIzMBFjmLFh_h5a63ueVVpd8lkEdWeUx5Xx1RaoPg3T5Ph8YlG >> > > >> > > 0558qqHLZD8-DKeBPEC3YYM,&typo=1 >> > > >> > > er-prize-winner-dr-emily-mcternan/ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > "In her forthcoming monograph, Dr McTernan >> develops her work on social equality further, to advance a pioneering >> conceptual account – and robust normative defence – of the phenomenon of >> ‘taking offence’. Therein, McTernan contends, we should understand taking >> offence, under appropriate conditions, as a civic virtue rather than a >> vice, as an emotion that embodies the resistance of social inequalities >> within a community." >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On 9/8/21 8:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> > > >> > > From about a cancer rate of 10% (without >> mutation) to 50% (with) but it depends on the BRCA variant. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca> < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca>> >> > > >> > > n >> > > >> > > c >> > > >> > > er.htm >> > > >> > > < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c> < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm >> < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm >> >> >> > > >> > > a < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm >> < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm >> >> >> > > >> > > n < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm >> < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm >> >> >> > > >> > > cer.htm> < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm >> < >> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm >> >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sep 8, 2021, at 4:07 PM, Frank >> Wimberly <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto: >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Is the Braca gene that little correlated >> with breast cancer? >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > --- >> > > >> > > Frank C. Wimberly >> > > >> > > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> > > >> > > Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > 505 670-9918 >> > > >> > > Santa Fe, NM >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021, 4:57 PM Marcus >> Daniels <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto: >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto: >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto: >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Yeah, it is hard to get excited about >> “unusual” variance. Modern >> > > >> > > classification algorithms like gradient >> boosting make it possible >> > > >> > > to predict phenotypes, and to me that is >> a lot more interesting >> > > >> > > (and still possible to deconstruct).____ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > *From:* Friam < >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto: >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto: >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto: >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> *On >> Behalf Of *Eric Charles >> > > >> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021 >> 3:53 PM >> > > >> > > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied >> Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto: >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> <mailto:[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>>> >> > > >> > > *Subject:* [FRIAM] gen'fur____ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Gen'fur this, gen'fur that... and also >> the realities of biological complexity.... >> >> >> -- >> ☤>$ uǝlƃ >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >
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