Technology to the rescue! https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15112
From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 9:01 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture So Nick's point is you don't call an unborn child a "baby". Or a "child". --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 9:36 AM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Yes. On Sep 11, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Frank Wimberly <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: we can stop arguing about this for ever. How ‘bout that? Agreed! But what will we talk about? :-) One question which I am asking sincerely. Can amniocentesis detect Down syndrome? Come back safely, Nick. Frank --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 9:13 AM <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Wimberly's Conjecture: There is no correct, reductionist explanation of > consciousness. Well, depends on what you mean by reduction. If you limit reduction to accounts in terms of events at lower levels or organization, then I absolutely agree, and we can stop arguing about this for ever. How ‘bout that? Nick Thompson [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 4:18 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur 😁 --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 1:22 PM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I should have known to hide the drugs from the addicts. -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 12:16 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur It's your fault for focusing on reading ability instead of some less subjective trait. Had you focused on, say, tool use <https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/our-intelligent-ancestor-neanderthal> or somesuch, then we may not have gone there. ... Aaaaa, who am I kidding? We always go there. On 9/10/21 12:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > How did we get started on consciousness again? The thread started with some > snark about the power of GWAS associations.. > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > *On Behalf Of *Frank > Wimberly > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 11:56 AM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur > > > > Wimberly's Conjecture: There is no correct, reductionist explanation of > consciousness. > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 11:44 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > > It's no more profound than any other multi-order composition. It's part > of the work we have to do for mechanistic modeling of higher order > constructs. What galls me is that we can talk about it so much without > discussing the mechanisms of construction. > > The details of composing from genes, through physiological structures, > through interoception, to very high order attributes like "reading ability" > are interesting, regardless of any profundity. But some of us need to be > reminded of how the details build the narrative. Like Magic Eye pictures, the > Necker cube, or the lady/vase thing, what might seem banal without the larger > frame can seem profound when the discourse is enlarged ... when it all snaps > into place. > > > On 9/10/21 10:25 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Fine, the goal is some composition of functions and it is all > interdependent. > > > > Sure. Of course. Why is this so profound to y’all? > > > > > > > > *From:* Friam > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> *On > Behalf Of *[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 10:20 AM > > *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur > > > > > > > > Which takes us back to thermostats, intentionality, intensional > inexistence, Sober’s epiphomenator, spandrels, and Lorenz’s law: The goal is > never the function. If you build a bird that measures competing male robins > in terms of “brown stick with red fluff” you eventually get an ethologist who > gets that bird to attack by providing only brown sticks with red fluff. > > > > > > > > See. It’s all connected. > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > Nick Thompson > > > > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > > > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>> > > > > > > > > *From:* Friam > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>>> *On > Behalf Of *Steve Smith > > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 12:30 PM > > *To:* [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur > > > > > > > > Sometimes all you need is a good aphorism > > > > https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law > <https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law> > <https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law > <https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law>> > > > > or maybe boost it up with a cartoon > > > > https://sketchplanations.com/ <https://sketchplanations.com/> > <https://sketchplanations.com/ <https://sketchplanations.com/>> > > > > I can't help but wonder if there's an analog of Goodhart's law > lurking, here. > > > > > > > > > > > > On September 9, 2021 2:31:39 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > > > > Or they are reprogramming their people to be smarter! > > > > (Actually, deCODE is owned by Amgen now.) > > > > > > > > Selection is already occurring, so it isn't as if this is some > sci-fi thing. > > > > > > > > > https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/ > > <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/> > > <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/ > > <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/>> > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Friam > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> On > Behalf Of David Eric Smith > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 2:12 PM > > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur > > > > > > > > Aha! This is why Iceland has the highest per-capita fraction > of published authors in the world. I had assumed it was the weather…. > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 2:17 AM, Marcus Daniels > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > That can be screened as well with a large population-wide > survey such has been done in the UK or Iceland. > > > > Of course, it is unlikely that complex behaviors will be > governed by isolated mutations, so the task is to look for highly predictive > motifs (e.g. regular expressions). > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Friam > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> On > Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 10:12 AM > > > > To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur > > > > > > > > Ha! Now you're trolling. The answer is: "because the sites > that generate reading ability (or whatever) *also* generate other > 'abilities'", with "abilities" in scare quotes because many abilities are > considered bad ... like the ability of a pimply faced white dude to shoot up > a church or blow up a federal building. > > > > > > > > In addition to polyphenism, there's robustness. If more > than 1 site generates the same functional ability (reading), then do we write > them all? ... just one of them? ... a probabilistically predictive handful of > them? > > > > > > > > On 9/9/21 10:00 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > > > So find the sites that correspond to reading ability, > or whatever, and WRITE them. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Friam > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> On > Behalf Of u?l? ?>$ > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 9:51 AM > > > > To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur > > > > > > > > I was alerted to this article this morning: > > > > > > > > Can Progressives Be Convinced That Genetics Matters? > > > > > https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con > <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con> > <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con > <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con>> > > > > v > > > > inced-that-genetics-matters > > > > > > > > It should delight those amongst us who rant about the > "woke". 8^D But it dovetails nicely with the fraught concept of equality in > the other thread. > > > > > > > > Coincidentally, also on 9/6, the BIAPT announced their > early career prize winner Emily McTernan: > > > > > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo> > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo>> > > > > rpoliticalthought.ac.uk<http://rpoliticalthought.ac.uk> > <http://rpoliticalthought.ac.uk>%2fbiapt-2021-early-care&c=E,1,Je9MVNdO8lpJQOd > > > > > 6fZwUNe-4z5yuFq0upxNIzMBFjmLFh_h5a63ueVVpd8lkEdWeUx5Xx1RaoPg3T5Ph8YlG > > > > 0558qqHLZD8-DKeBPEC3YYM,&typo=1 > > > > er-prize-winner-dr-emily-mcternan/ > > > > > > > > "In her forthcoming monograph, Dr McTernan develops her > work on social equality further, to advance a pioneering conceptual account – > and robust normative defence – of the phenomenon of ‘taking offence’. > Therein, McTernan contends, we should understand taking offence, under > appropriate conditions, as a civic virtue rather than a vice, as an emotion > that embodies the resistance of social inequalities within a community." > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/8/21 8:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > > > From about a cancer rate of 10% (without mutation) > to 50% (with) but it depends on the BRCA variant. > > > > > > > > > https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca> > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca>> > > > > n > > > > c > > > > er.htm > > > > > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c> > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm>> > > > > a > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm>> > > > > n > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm>> > > > > cer.htm> > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm>> > > > > > > > > On Sep 8, 2021, at 4:07 PM, Frank Wimberly > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the Braca gene that little correlated with > breast cancer? > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Frank C. Wimberly > > > > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > > > > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > > > > > > > 505 670-9918 > > > > Santa Fe, NM > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021, 4:57 PM Marcus Daniels > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > Yeah, it is hard to get excited about > “unusual” variance. Modern > > > > classification algorithms like gradient > boosting make it possible > > > > to predict phenotypes, and to me that is a lot > more interesting > > > > (and still possible to deconstruct).____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > *From:* Friam > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>>> *On > Behalf Of *Eric Charles > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021 3:53 PM > > > > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > Coffee Group <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>>> > > > > *Subject:* [FRIAM] gen'fur____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > Gen'fur this, gen'fur that... and also the > realities of biological complexity.... -- ☤>$ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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