I’ve heard these words from you Glen, but I have no idea what these loops are or what you might be talking about.
> On Nov 26, 2021, at 5:07 PM, ⛧ glen <[email protected]> wrote: > > Absolutely. I've been trying to get you to talk about loop scoping (in space > and time) for. like. ever. So what set of scoping measures do you intend to > use? Time must be important, fast vs slow feedback. Distance would be, too. > But there are more interesting measures, like concreteness, or vagueness. > E.g. during development, parts of the developing system may express a > distributional expectation/anticipation of the consequences. Such > expectations might come with a fuzziness that refines to crispness with > iterations of the loop. That uncertainty is, like speed and distance, a > useful measure of the feedback scope. Another type of measure might be > variety of consequences. The expectation might be for a sharp peaked, > symmetric distribution of consequences, where, through iterations, it spreads > to a fat, asymmetric, or multimodal distribution. > > I'm NOT, however, willing to allow that any consequences do not feed back. > All consequences feed back. I am willing to allow that the distribution of > consequences changes, and that the prior differs from the post. Essentially, > what feeds back is a distribution, not objectified things (which allows for a > more coherent conception of causal loops). So if you qualify epi- vs > phenomenon with a scalable measure, such that "small" consequences are more > epi- and "large" consequences are less epi-, then we might make some progress. > > Of course, all of my rhetoric argues against a crisply ordinal conception > like epi- in the first place. But you're so faithfully hypnotized by that > word, it's unreasonable for me to expect you to doff it. > > >> On November 26, 2021 4:30:05 PM PST, [email protected] wrote: >> Hmmm! I sort of see your point. But notice that we have to get around the >> most fundamental notion of causality, that an effect occurs after its cause >> and cannot therefore be a cause of the cause that caused it. We probably >> get around that by stipulating that we are dealing with recursive systems, >> feed back systems in which the effects may act back on the cause of the >> things that caused those effects. Now, once we have stipulated THAT, we >> show an interest in discriminating those that do feed back in that manner >> from those that don't. The latter are epiphenomena. You may of course >> insist that all causal relations are loopy, and therefore, no phenomenon is >> epi-. In which case, I would insist that there is some value in >> discriminating between those systems that are more loopy and those that are >> less loopy. >> >> Could we agree on that little step? >> >> N >> >> Nick Thompson >> [email protected] >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of ? glen >> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 4:58 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation >> >> As always, I'd argue that such things don't exist. There are no structures >> (or behaviors) with consequences that played no part in their development. >> So, as a counterfactual hypothetical, it could be fun to play such a game. >> But the burden is on the game master to persuade us why it might be a fun >> game. It looks useless or worse, encouraging of false belief, to me. >> >> >>> On November 25, 2021 10:39:18 PM PST, [email protected] wrote: >>> >>> We >>> will argue for a definition of an epiphenomenon as a consequence of a >>> structure's (or behavior's) design which has played no part the >>> development of that structure (or behavior). >> -- > > -- > glen ⛧ > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
