Marcus That is a famous prototype. Recently Hydrostor made headlines building new CAES plants. The main issue is the need of a salt cavern. The amount of possible sites is very small. The caverns are used to mine salts for bleaches/chemicals or to store natural gas. This tech is $111/kwh.
On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 6:14 PM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> wrote: > For comparison > > > > > https://schaperintl.com/is-the-juice-worth-the-squeeze-compressed-air-energy-storage-for-grid-scale-power/ > > > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Michael Orshan > *Sent:* Monday, February 7, 2022 3:42 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our > Democracy > > > > Hi Frank: > > > > We need any, but hopefully renewable energy, to generate power for the > compressors. This also creates heat which we can recycle for more > electricity or use for industrial purposes. Our efficiency isn't high, but > once we are in the pipelines we have a huge battery. 60 miles, 36 inch > diameter can hold 240MWh. We can be instant inertia energy or generate. > Our storage costs are about $50/kwh. Batteries are $400/kwh for example. > Also, we can store compressed air for months upon months. Also, if we can > build the renewables close enough to the plant we can go DC/DC which is a > 25% energy savings not having to convert to AC. > > > > On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 11:05 AM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> > wrote: > > How do you compress the air? Any method I can think of uses energy. From > what source? > > > > Frank > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > > > On Mon, Feb 7, 2022, 10:57 AM Michael Orshan <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi. I'm a reader more than a contributor, but the Hydrogen discussion is > close to my day to day. > > > > Many of us in renewables think Hydrogen might mostly be kick the can as > Steve mentioned. It is something that might be economically feasible in > the 2030s and so the length of time oil companies sell oil increases. > Having said that, there are a number of very pricey Hydrogen projects > getting funded. That might be showing how profitable the O&G industry is. > > > > I'm working with a company we call Breeze <http://www.breezesqueeze.com>. > It uses compressed air in pipelines to move turbines at power plants. > Without fossil fuels or using water this is getting a lot of attention. > There are many advantages such as cold air where compressed air is released > that can be used by data centers. 25% of all GHGs come from generating > electricity. 45% of all water used in the US is used to create > electricity. > > > > We see this as a better option than Hydrogen. We do think Hydrogen fuel > cells are a solution for mobile applications. > > > > Mike Orshan > > > > On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 10:27 AM Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 2/6/22 8:31 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > > https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/ > > *Low-cost fossil fuel resources are finite. Someday it will simply > not be possible to burn oil, natural gas, and coal for the affordable heat, > electricity, and motive power humans need to power their prosperous > societies. * > > Must we always begin with the assumption that growth in terms of > geographical/geometric, material and energy consumption/appropriation are > requisite to continuing/growing a "prosperous society"? Tangentially (or > not), if "green" hydrogen implies a 2:1 ratio of CO2 production to H2 but > often begins with fossil fuels, it is obviously yet another "kick the can > down the road" solution. Harvesting solar and direct-solar/lunar-derived > energy (including wind, tidal) and channeling it through our living > (including technological infrastructure and agri-industry) systems to yield > high-entropy "waste heat" seems to be orders of magnitude more sustainable > (if still questionable on some very long time-scale limited by a > Dyson-Sphere-like-limit). If the H2 is created by cracking H20 (and > capturing both to be recombined later to release energy) using solar (and > other renewables) energy it is a *closed cycle*. One would presume the > total amount of H2 we would have stored/ > > From ecology there comes the observed phenomena of "island syndrome" which > can include island dwarfism and poikilothermy which are both driven by > reducing the demand on finite resources without giving up function or > complexity. > > From Alexander Payne comes the absurdist SciFi flick Downsizing > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downsizing_(film)#Plot> which postulates > by shrinking humans by ???-fold (5 inches tall ~= 12:1 in 1 dimension, > 144:1 in cross section and 1728:1 in volume/mass... ) the movie implies no > change in metabolic rates which would nominally speed up with "shrinkage", > yielding (also) shorter lifespans. Oh well.. Fiction. But the point > would seem well taken... Gaia would get a 2000:1 reprieve from our > *current* energy/mass burden on her systems. > > I'm not promoting shrinking people as-such, just noting that our 0th order > instinct is growth, and supralinear if at all possible, up to and likely > achieving Kurzweillian asymptotic resource consumption. > > On that note, I believe that the myriad technological singularity concepts > all point toward increased complexity and downscaling to extend the use of > material and energy, driving up the effective collective metabolism of "the > system" and paradoxically *increasing* the rate at which we approach any of > the jillion ecophagic gray-goo <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo>-like > scenarios neo-luddites like me might contrive. > > I assume (but have not yet poked around for) that Alifers have already > studied the multi-scale *structure* of negative entropy profiles in complex > systems-of-systems. I think Glen has his ear closer to that rail than > some here? EricS? ??? I'm still fascinated in the topic but gave up my > little-toenail-purchase in the community in the early 2000s - Symbiotic > Intelligence ALifeVI > <https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~rik/alife6/papers/SY51.html>. This reads so > naive yet (mildly) prophetic now... > > All is lost! Flee the solar system! > > > > > > On Feb 6, 2022, at 7:20 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > > > Grey hydrogen? > > > https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/ > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe> > > un/subscribe <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > archives: > > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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