FWIW my grandson Matthew's photo is on the front page of the Santa Fe New Mexican because of his work to send packages to Ukrainian refugees.
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Mon, Mar 7, 2022, 11:04 AM glen <[email protected]> wrote: > It's not clear to me if EricC is accidentally or purposefully distorting > the message. In order for us to accuse the participants in Patriotic > Millionaires (PM) of *not* supporting any given cause, we'd need to look at > their individual philanthropy. Looking at the stances, lobbying, and > messaging of PM is inadequate. > > E.g. If we took a look at an issue PM says is Good, a "value", and we > examine the donations of all the PM participants and found that either a) > they don't donate any of their money at all or b) they donate to everything > except the values of the PM, *then* EricC's rhetoric would have some > traction. > > Otherwise, what an org advocates is not, cannot ever be, identical to what > its members advocate. > > I've done none of that work of comparing PM's advocacy/lobbying and its > participants' actions. Perhaps others have? > > On 3/7/22 09:51, Eric Charles wrote: > > Pick a cause if you want, or just send your money to the government if > the > > point is that you think the government should have it. ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯ > > > > <[email protected]> > > A Javelin missile costs $175,203 according to Wikipedia. 4 years of > college > > education is cheaper than that at most institutions. *Any *millionaire > > could just cover one of those, if they thought that was the best use of > > their money. *Any *millionaire could cover 4 of them, and still have a > > significantly higher net worth than the median American under 40. We need > > to stop pretending otherwise. If someone has several million, they could > > cover a whole lot more and still be doing just fine. > > > > "Look, man, I think helping kids go to college is a morally crucial > > activity and that those who have an obligation to support it should do > > so... But I won't help with that unless I know a legislature is forcing > > lots of other people to help kids go to college!" Well.... ok.... but > > that's a pretty shitty position to take. > > > > Maybe you think it's so important that you want to help yourself, and > you *also > > *you think others should be forced to help. Sure. I don't like that > > position, but it is sensible, and you can morally ground it in all sorts > of > > ways. But no level of moral importance should exist as a category where > you > > won't help unless everyone else is forced to as well. Yes, people take > that > > position all the time. But it is a morally shitty position, and we should > > treat it that way. > > > > Phrased differently: Having the government pick up the slack when > > individual action is insufficient can often make sense. Claiming that > only > > government action should happen, and then acting as if that claim somehow > > relieves individuals from any obligation to live up to their purported > > moral values, is crap. > > > > If you think it is important to support local kids getting a college > > education, then step up. You are in absolutely no sense "a bum" or "a > > sucker" if you help someone afford a college education and your neighbor > > doesn't. That's not how moral action works. Not at all. The correct > > response to someone trying to act that way is to try to force them to > admit > > the obvious truth, which is that they have chosen not to support whatever > > the cause is that is in question. > > > > Again, if they *are *supporting the cause, and adding on top of their > > individual support a statement that they also think others should do > more, > > that's a much more defendable position. Statements like "I think the arts > > should be supported, which is why I donated $XX,XXX to The Kennedy > Center, > > while lobbying my federal congressperson for more tax support" is > perfectly > > reasonable, as is "I think we need to better support local kids going to > > college, which is why I provided 5 $X,XXX local-kid scholarships this > local > > high school graduates, while also talking with my state congressperson > > about upping state funding to state schools." > > > > Do a survey of the "Patriotic Millionaires" and ask them how much more > they > > paid in taxes than what they owed. My guess is that you would find $0 as > > the across the board answer. If it's not $0 across the board, certainly > the > > median will be $0. > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 9:47 AM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >> Let’s say it is not a box of cookies but a four year college scholarship > >> or a Javelin missile launcher. The millionaire might be able to pay > those > >> individually, but no one else. In that situation there is no sales for > the > >> individual girl scouts to perform. At best a few heroic medium-sized > >> donations. > >> > >> Some purchases will be out of reach without spreading the cost around, > >> even over thousands of millionaires. > >> > >> On Mar 7, 2022, at 6:04 AM, Eric Charles < > [email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Marcus, > >> Let's say you have a neighbor who's always talking about wanting to > >> support the girl scouts, and who even goes so far as to set up a web > page > >> about how important it is to support the girl scouts, and pays to have > >> signs printed and distributed around town about how important it is to > >> support girl scouts. You have a cousin in the girl scouts, so you send > her > >> over with the girl-scout cookie order form. The neighbor takes a look at > >> the forms and tells your cousin "While I *do *think I should support > girl > >> scouts, I am not going to give you any money unless everyone else in the > >> neighboorhood is forced to give you money too. Don't ask me to be a > chump." > >> > >> What would we make of that? > >> > >> > >> <[email protected]> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 11:13 PM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Facebook had advertisements on TV for a few months talking about their > >>> efforts to review content for fake news. They advocated government > >>> regulation. Commonality being that a taxation or regulation impacts > them > >>> and their competitors in the same way, so their effective power and > >>> influence won’t be negatively impacted. “Don’t ask me to be a chump.” > >>> > >>> On Mar 6, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Eric Charles < > [email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> Frank, > >>> That all seems 100% positive to me. > >>> > >>> Do you also routinely publicly complain about how legislatures are lax > in > >>> not forcing you to do more of that sort of thing, because you strongly > >>> think that you should do more, but are unwilling to without the > government > >>> forcing you to? > >>> > >>> THAT is what the Patriotic Millionaires are doing. > >>> > >>> <[email protected]> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 9:43 PM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I probably shouldn't volunteer to be a case in your argument but... > >>>> > >>>> I do make donations to universities and a church. Today my wife and > >>>> grandson Matthew assembled packages of hygiene products for Ukrainian > >>>> refugees which included things like towels, toothpaste, toothbrushes, > soap, > >>>> shampoo etc. This was done at United Church of Santa Fe. As for > financial > >>>> contributions we spend $20k per year for tuition at Matthew's school > which > >>>> is a Montessori school for kids with executive function problems. > There > >>>> are a number of scholarship students whose families wouldn't be able > to > >>>> send their kids there without help. > >>>> > >>>> The church group put together 137 packages this morning. We donated > >>>> funds for the purchase of some of the stuff. > >>>> > >>>> Melinda Gates said that if you're a billionaire you can donate half of > >>>> your assets without any impact on your lifestyle. But that's a > different > >>>> question. > >>>> > >>>> Frank > >>>> > >>>> --- > >>>> Frank C. Wimberly > >>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > >>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 > >>>> > >>>> 505 670-9918 > >>>> Santa Fe, NM > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 7:24 PM Eric Charles < > >>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> While some of the goals of groups like "Patriotic Millionaires" are > >>>>> admirable, I can never get past the blatant hypocrisy of it all. > Maybe > >>>>> "hypocrisy" isn't exactly the right term. You could also see the part > >>>>> that bugs me as a bizarre worship of the benefits of authority over > >>>>> individual choice. Let me rephrase their primary claim: "I, as a rich > >>>>> person, recognize that I really *should *give more of my money to > >>>>> certain causes, but I adamantly refuse to do so unless forced to do > so by > >>>>> the federal legislature." > >>>>> > >>>>> What is anyone really to make of that position? Is it any different > >>>>> than trying to look virtuous by saying that you know you should stop > using > >>>>> child labor in your mine, while also publicly refusing to stop > unless the > >>>>> government makes you? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 3:08 PM glen <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Obviously, I'm either procrastinating or unclear on how best to do > >>>>>> actual work today because here is yet another thing I meant to talk > about > >>>>>> with someone, anyone, awhile back: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://patrioticmillionaires.org/about/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> A salon participant recently asked whether "greed" was our most > >>>>>> nefarious trait as a species. It's a great question for sparking > >>>>>> discussion. My answer was that the most nefarious trait of *all* > species is > >>>>>> myopia, the inability to reason over externalities, from pond scum > to the > >>>>>> Trust <https://raised-by-wolves.fandom.com/wiki/Trust>. But to > >>>>>> de-emphasize what people think of as "greed", I said "Trying to > ensure you > >>>>>> have enough money to live out your life in relative comfort is not > greed. > >>>>>> Greed is, after acquiring billions of dollars, you feel the need to > acquire > >>>>>> more billions of dollars." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I found Patriotic Millionaires prior to that conversation. And it > >>>>>> seems legit ... a set of outwardly greedy people who recognize > limits to > >>>>>> their greed ... a recognition that there's a spectrum of merit, > some luck, > >>>>>> some effort, some systemic infrastructure, etc. Overall, > [m|b]illionaire > >>>>>> philanthropy (and especially effective altruism) seem like jokes to > me, > >>>>>> very postmodern jokes. "Here, let me given you a billion dollars > without > >>>>>> fundamentally rewriting your genetic code." Pffft. Give anyone > enough money > >>>>>> and you'll corrupt them fundamentally, often against their will. > >>>>>> Philanthropists know this. Effective Altruism is an oxymoron. You > can't > >>>>>> both be coercive and altruistic at the same time. >8^D > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Anyway, I'd welcome any opinion on Patriotic Millionaires. > > -- > glen > When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers. > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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