Do any tax return forms have an item that says, "Gift to the US Treasury"? It might work.
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Mon, Mar 7, 2022, 2:10 PM Eric Charles <[email protected]> wrote: > Glen, > Intentional, but not distortion. > > If they were advocating more funding to cancer research, then just as you > suggest we would want to see if they also gave philanthropically to support > cancer research. If they were advocating more funding to the arts, then we > would want to see what they gave to the arts (e.g., my Kennedy Center) > example. Many rich people behave in exactly this way; I've seen tons of > rich people over the years running those sorts of messages to good effect. > > The parallel in this situation: If they were advocating more of their > money be taken in taxes and put into the federal general fund, we would > want evidence that they were voluntarily paying more taxes than they owe. > Preferably, we would want to see something in line with whatever tax > policies they are advocating be applied to people of their wealth level, > but I'd be happy with any sizable payment over what they currently owe > under current IRS code. > > Can we find evidence of a single one of them even claiming to have done > that? Not hard evidence that they did so, even just a claim to have done > so. Has anyone on here seen such a claim? > > I obviously haven't done an exhaustive search, but I've been tracking rich > people talking about this individually or in groups for probably three > decades now, and I've never seen anyone openly claim to have volentarily > paid the amount of taxes they would owe under the system they claim to want > applied to them by force. I've never even seen someone talk about how the > movement inspired them to pay *any *general taxes over what they owe > within the current system. It is pretty weird to publicly announce that you > are only willing to do the something you claim is morally right if you are > forced to do so by legislation. In what other context do we ever see those > kinds of statements? > <[email protected]> > > > > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 1:04 PM glen <[email protected]> wrote: > >> It's not clear to me if EricC is accidentally or purposefully distorting >> the message. In order for us to accuse the participants in Patriotic >> Millionaires (PM) of *not* supporting any given cause, we'd need to look at >> their individual philanthropy. Looking at the stances, lobbying, and >> messaging of PM is inadequate. >> >> E.g. If we took a look at an issue PM says is Good, a "value", and we >> examine the donations of all the PM participants and found that either a) >> they don't donate any of their money at all or b) they donate to everything >> except the values of the PM, *then* EricC's rhetoric would have some >> traction. >> >> Otherwise, what an org advocates is not, cannot ever be, identical to >> what its members advocate. >> >> I've done none of that work of comparing PM's advocacy/lobbying and its >> participants' actions. Perhaps others have? >> >> On 3/7/22 09:51, Eric Charles wrote: >> > Pick a cause if you want, or just send your money to the government if >> the >> > point is that you think the government should have it. ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯ >> > >> > <[email protected]> >> > A Javelin missile costs $175,203 according to Wikipedia. 4 years of >> college >> > education is cheaper than that at most institutions. *Any *millionaire >> > could just cover one of those, if they thought that was the best use of >> > their money. *Any *millionaire could cover 4 of them, and still have a >> > significantly higher net worth than the median American under 40. We >> need >> > to stop pretending otherwise. If someone has several million, they could >> > cover a whole lot more and still be doing just fine. >> > >> > "Look, man, I think helping kids go to college is a morally crucial >> > activity and that those who have an obligation to support it should do >> > so... But I won't help with that unless I know a legislature is forcing >> > lots of other people to help kids go to college!" Well.... ok.... but >> > that's a pretty shitty position to take. >> > >> > Maybe you think it's so important that you want to help yourself, and >> you *also >> > *you think others should be forced to help. Sure. I don't like that >> > position, but it is sensible, and you can morally ground it in all >> sorts of >> > ways. But no level of moral importance should exist as a category where >> you >> > won't help unless everyone else is forced to as well. Yes, people take >> that >> > position all the time. But it is a morally shitty position, and we >> should >> > treat it that way. >> > >> > Phrased differently: Having the government pick up the slack when >> > individual action is insufficient can often make sense. Claiming that >> only >> > government action should happen, and then acting as if that claim >> somehow >> > relieves individuals from any obligation to live up to their purported >> > moral values, is crap. >> > >> > If you think it is important to support local kids getting a college >> > education, then step up. You are in absolutely no sense "a bum" or "a >> > sucker" if you help someone afford a college education and your neighbor >> > doesn't. That's not how moral action works. Not at all. The correct >> > response to someone trying to act that way is to try to force them to >> admit >> > the obvious truth, which is that they have chosen not to support >> whatever >> > the cause is that is in question. >> > >> > Again, if they *are *supporting the cause, and adding on top of their >> > individual support a statement that they also think others should do >> more, >> > that's a much more defendable position. Statements like "I think the >> arts >> > should be supported, which is why I donated $XX,XXX to The Kennedy >> Center, >> > while lobbying my federal congressperson for more tax support" is >> perfectly >> > reasonable, as is "I think we need to better support local kids going to >> > college, which is why I provided 5 $X,XXX local-kid scholarships this >> local >> > high school graduates, while also talking with my state congressperson >> > about upping state funding to state schools." >> > >> > Do a survey of the "Patriotic Millionaires" and ask them how much more >> they >> > paid in taxes than what they owed. My guess is that you would find $0 as >> > the across the board answer. If it's not $0 across the board, certainly >> the >> > median will be $0. >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 9:47 AM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> >> Let’s say it is not a box of cookies but a four year college >> scholarship >> >> or a Javelin missile launcher. The millionaire might be able to pay >> those >> >> individually, but no one else. In that situation there is no sales >> for the >> >> individual girl scouts to perform. At best a few heroic medium-sized >> >> donations. >> >> >> >> Some purchases will be out of reach without spreading the cost around, >> >> even over thousands of millionaires. >> >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2022, at 6:04 AM, Eric Charles < >> [email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Marcus, >> >> Let's say you have a neighbor who's always talking about wanting to >> >> support the girl scouts, and who even goes so far as to set up a web >> page >> >> about how important it is to support the girl scouts, and pays to have >> >> signs printed and distributed around town about how important it is to >> >> support girl scouts. You have a cousin in the girl scouts, so you send >> her >> >> over with the girl-scout cookie order form. The neighbor takes a look >> at >> >> the forms and tells your cousin "While I *do *think I should support >> girl >> >> scouts, I am not going to give you any money unless everyone else in >> the >> >> neighboorhood is forced to give you money too. Don't ask me to be a >> chump." >> >> >> >> What would we make of that? >> >> >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 11:13 PM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Facebook had advertisements on TV for a few months talking about their >> >>> efforts to review content for fake news. They advocated government >> >>> regulation. Commonality being that a taxation or regulation impacts >> them >> >>> and their competitors in the same way, so their effective power and >> >>> influence won’t be negatively impacted. “Don’t ask me to be a >> chump.” >> >>> >> >>> On Mar 6, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Eric Charles < >> [email protected]> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Frank, >> >>> That all seems 100% positive to me. >> >>> >> >>> Do you also routinely publicly complain about how legislatures are >> lax in >> >>> not forcing you to do more of that sort of thing, because you strongly >> >>> think that you should do more, but are unwilling to without the >> government >> >>> forcing you to? >> >>> >> >>> THAT is what the Patriotic Millionaires are doing. >> >>> >> >>> <[email protected]> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 9:43 PM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> I probably shouldn't volunteer to be a case in your argument but... >> >>>> >> >>>> I do make donations to universities and a church. Today my wife and >> >>>> grandson Matthew assembled packages of hygiene products for Ukrainian >> >>>> refugees which included things like towels, toothpaste, >> toothbrushes, soap, >> >>>> shampoo etc. This was done at United Church of Santa Fe. As for >> financial >> >>>> contributions we spend $20k per year for tuition at Matthew's school >> which >> >>>> is a Montessori school for kids with executive function problems. >> There >> >>>> are a number of scholarship students whose families wouldn't be able >> to >> >>>> send their kids there without help. >> >>>> >> >>>> The church group put together 137 packages this morning. We donated >> >>>> funds for the purchase of some of the stuff. >> >>>> >> >>>> Melinda Gates said that if you're a billionaire you can donate half >> of >> >>>> your assets without any impact on your lifestyle. But that's a >> different >> >>>> question. >> >>>> >> >>>> Frank >> >>>> >> >>>> --- >> >>>> Frank C. Wimberly >> >>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> >>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> >>>> >> >>>> 505 670-9918 >> >>>> Santa Fe, NM >> >>>> >> >>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 7:24 PM Eric Charles < >> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> While some of the goals of groups like "Patriotic Millionaires" are >> >>>>> admirable, I can never get past the blatant hypocrisy of it all. >> Maybe >> >>>>> "hypocrisy" isn't exactly the right term. You could also see the >> part >> >>>>> that bugs me as a bizarre worship of the benefits of authority over >> >>>>> individual choice. Let me rephrase their primary claim: "I, as a >> rich >> >>>>> person, recognize that I really *should *give more of my money to >> >>>>> certain causes, but I adamantly refuse to do so unless forced to do >> so by >> >>>>> the federal legislature." >> >>>>> >> >>>>> What is anyone really to make of that position? Is it any different >> >>>>> than trying to look virtuous by saying that you know you should >> stop using >> >>>>> child labor in your mine, while also publicly refusing to stop >> unless the >> >>>>> government makes you? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 3:08 PM glen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Obviously, I'm either procrastinating or unclear on how best to do >> >>>>>> actual work today because here is yet another thing I meant to >> talk about >> >>>>>> with someone, anyone, awhile back: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> https://patrioticmillionaires.org/about/ >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> A salon participant recently asked whether "greed" was our most >> >>>>>> nefarious trait as a species. It's a great question for sparking >> >>>>>> discussion. My answer was that the most nefarious trait of *all* >> species is >> >>>>>> myopia, the inability to reason over externalities, from pond scum >> to the >> >>>>>> Trust <https://raised-by-wolves.fandom.com/wiki/Trust>. But to >> >>>>>> de-emphasize what people think of as "greed", I said "Trying to >> ensure you >> >>>>>> have enough money to live out your life in relative comfort is not >> greed. >> >>>>>> Greed is, after acquiring billions of dollars, you feel the need >> to acquire >> >>>>>> more billions of dollars." >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I found Patriotic Millionaires prior to that conversation. And it >> >>>>>> seems legit ... a set of outwardly greedy people who recognize >> limits to >> >>>>>> their greed ... a recognition that there's a spectrum of merit, >> some luck, >> >>>>>> some effort, some systemic infrastructure, etc. Overall, >> [m|b]illionaire >> >>>>>> philanthropy (and especially effective altruism) seem like jokes >> to me, >> >>>>>> very postmodern jokes. "Here, let me given you a billion dollars >> without >> >>>>>> fundamentally rewriting your genetic code." Pffft. Give anyone >> enough money >> >>>>>> and you'll corrupt them fundamentally, often against their will. >> >>>>>> Philanthropists know this. Effective Altruism is an oxymoron. You >> can't >> >>>>>> both be coercive and altruistic at the same time. >8^D >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Anyway, I'd welcome any opinion on Patriotic Millionaires. >> >> -- >> glen >> When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers. >> >> >> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: >> 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
