To bend threads a little, suppose we have 10,000 Tesla-like cars in full self-driving mode in some part of a city. They coordinate an optimization model that maximizes throughput between different destinations by choosing routes that don’t interfere. That isn’t a sort of culture?
As for attention, I don’t have enough of it to follow the innovations: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.16775.pdf From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2022 11:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive heuristics Glen asked: "Do we have self-attending machines that can change what parts of self they're attending? Change from soft to hard? Allow for self-attending the part that's self-attending (and up and around in a loopy way)? To what extent can we make them modal, swapping from learning mode to perform mode?" I'll not attempt a direct response, yet; but I am certain I will have one in a few days. I am in the middle of digesting: The Master and his Emissary The Matter With Things, vol I: The Ways to Truth The Matter With Things. vol II: What Then Is True All by Iain McGilchrist (total pages a little over 1500) Attending is a key concept. All center on the bicameral mind, how the two sides work cooperatively and constantly, but how they offer different perspectives and different means of attending. A key thesis is that the "rationale" left-brain has assumed dominance and distorts our view of the world and of ourselves. I have long contended (since my Ph. D. thesis in 1988) that AIs will never equal human intelligence because they cannot and do not participate in "culture." From McGilchrist, I will be amending / extending that argument to include, "because they lack a right brain." davew On Wed, Apr 13, 2022, at 8:36 AM, glen wrote: > But we don't "create the neural structure over and over", at least we > don't create the *same* neural structure over and over. One way in > which big-data-trained self-attending ANN structures now mimic meat > intelligence is in that very intense training period. Development (from > zygote to (dysfunctional) adult) is the training. Adulting is the > testing/execution. But these transformer based mechanisms don't seem, > in my ignorance, to be as flexible as those grown in meat. Do we have > self-attending machines that can change what parts of self they're > attending? Change from soft to hard? Allow for self-attending the part > that's self-attending (and up and around in a loopy way)? To what > extent can we make them modal, swapping from learning mode to perform > mode? As SteveS points out, can machine intelligence "play" or > "practice" in the sense normal animals like us do? Are our modes even > modes? Or is all performance a type of play? To what extent can we make > them "social", collecting/integrating multiple transformer-based ANNs > so as to form a materially open problem solving collective? > > Anyway, it seems to me the neural structure is *not* an encoding of a > means to do things. It's a *complement* to the state(s) of the world in > which the neural structure grew. Co-evolutionary processes seem > different from encoding. Adversaries don't encode models of their > opponents so much as they mold their selves to smear into, fit with, > innervate, anastomose [⛧], their adversaries. This is what makes 2 > party games similar to team games and distinguishes "play" (infinite or > meta-games) from "gaming" (finite, or well-bounded payoff games). > > Again, I'm not suggesting machine intelligence can't do any of this; or > even that they aren't doing it to some small extent now. I'm only > suggesting they'll have to do *more* of it in order to be as capable as > meat intelligence. > > [⛧] I like "anastomotic" for adversarial systems as opposed to > "innervated" for co-evolution because anastomotic tissue seems (to me) > to result from a kind of high pressure, biomechanical stress. Perhaps > an analogy of soft martial arts styles to innervate and hard styles to > anastomose? > > On 4/12/22 20:43, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> Today, humans go to some length to record history, to preserve companies and >> their assets. But for some reason preserving the means to do things -- the >> essence of a mind -- this has this different status. Why not seek to >> inherit minds too? Sure, I can see the same knowledge base can be >> represented in different ways. But, studying those neural representations >> could also be informative. What if neural structures have similar >> topological properties given some curriculum? What a waste to create that >> neural structure over and over.. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On >> Behalf Of Steve Smith >> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2022 7:22 PM >> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Selective cultural processes generate adaptive >> heuristics >> >> >> On 4/12/22 5:53 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> I am not saying such a system would not need to be predatory or parasitic, >>> just that it can be arranged to preserve the contents of a library. >> >> And I can't help knee-jerking that when a cell attempts to live forever >> (and/or replicate itself perfectly) that it becomes a tumour in the >> organ(ism) that gave rise to it, and even metastasizes, spreading it's >> hubris to other organs/systems. >> >> Somehow, I think the inter-planetary post-human singularians are more like >> metastatic cells than "the future of humanity". Maybe that is NOT a >> dead-end, but my mortality-chauvanistic "self" rebels. Maybe if I live >> long enough I'll come around... or maybe there will be a CAS mediated edit >> to fix that pessimism in me. >> >> >>>> On Apr 12, 2022, at 4:29 PM, glen >>>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dude. Every time I think we could stop, you say something I object to. >>>> >8^D You're doing it on purpose. I'm sure of it ... like pulling the wings >>>> off flies and cackling like a madman. >>>> >>>> No, the maintenance protocol must be *part of* the meat-like intelligence. >>>> That's why I mention things like suicide or starving yourself because your >>>> wife stops feeding you. To me, a forever-autopoietic system seems like a >>>> perpetual motion machine ... there's something being taken for granted by >>>> the conception ... some unlimited free energy or somesuch. >>>> > > -- > Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 > bit.ly/virtualfriam<http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
