Saw this on Facebook https://photos.app.goo.gl/ogQSsx7ahJ2utqdR8
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Tue, Jan 24, 2023, 5:31 PM Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > As usual, I wasn't seeking anything near as crisp as I think you are. I > was merely making the observation that norm-to-norm, we often smear one > into another. I think your "hearing voices" example is quite apt: > > https://www.hearing-voices.org/ > > I think I agree with your implication that at best there may be a spectrum > of "mental states" which go from "pro-social" to "anti-social" in any given > social context. When first I encountered the term "neurodiverse" I felt > relieved of the need/habit/expectation to classify every behaviour or > presentation or implied mental state as "healthy or unhealthy". > > That does not, however, imply that mental states (or complexes of them?) > can't also be on a range from "pro-survival" to "anti-survival" (again, in > a given physical context). The basis vectors of social and physical > surely overlap... for example, "running out in front of a stampeding > buffalo herd and waving your arms wildly" is not particularly conducive to > individual survival when done in isolation, however, when done in > coordination with a tribe of spear-wielding hunters and a blind canyon or > cliff, maybe it is *highly* pro-survival (as well as pro-social). Or maybe > for some it is just "anxiety relief" before bungee jumping was invented? > > What I was trying to highlight maybe was what you more succinctly stated: > > "anything we classify as "mental illness" is hopelessly ill-defined and > would be better defined in terms of context" > > On 1/24/23 5:01 PM, glen wrote: > > I triggered when I read this and I'm not sure why. I think it's because, > in order to well-define some concept of "mental", you have to isolate it > from other things ... like "body" or environment. This might even go so far > as to isolate it from the biochemical processes in the brain. > > If you refuse to isolate it, then there's no such thing as "mental", > except as an abstraction from body, environment, social interaction, etc. > That makes your inference trivial. If you accept the isolation, then the > mental can be independent of the social, which refutes your inference [⛧]. > > And I don't *think* it matters where you draw the isolation boundary. It > could be that biochemical/electric in the brain is (part of) the mental, > but we isolate that from the body. Or it could be that mental is (in part) > the brain and the body, but we isolate the organism from its environment. > Etc. In each case, the inference you make is either trivial or refuted. > > Perhaps what you're actually expressing is that there is no such thing as > "mental"; and that anything we classify as "mental illness" is hopelessly > ill-defined and would be better defined in terms of context. Whether that > context is brain+body+environment or just environment doesn't matter so > much as the identifying of "mental" as a fiction. > > > [⛧] Refutes it in the absence of some clarifying premise that you may have > left out. E.g. if you added a shared values premise, say, that most people > don't hear voices, so it's "healthy" to not hear voices, but ill to hear > voices, then there can be "mental illness". If you really don't have an > unstated premise about mental norms or somesuch, and any mental state can > be just as OK as any other mental state, then it refutes it by nonsense. No > "mental illness" means no way to bind it to the social. > > On 1/24/23 15:40, Steve Smith wrote: > > I have also held the un(der)founded opinion that a great deal of what we > consider to be a *mental* illness is actually a *social* illness: the > cognitive dissonance experienced with one's social context can be something > "wrong" with both/either the individual or their context. > > > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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