<anecdotal report>
my dream life has been pretty elaborate from time to time and most
of it is not particularly unpleasant, but when I have had unpleasant
dreams they roughly fall into two categories: 1) worrying the
future; 2) worrying the past.
Mine are biased toward "frustration" over "fear". I'm rarely being
chased or at risk of falling off a cliff, but more likely trying to
find something or solve a problem or manipulate a complex set of
objects which are uncooperative.
Reports from my friends and acquaintances tend to revolve around
negative dreams and it feels as if that are the ones they find
worthy of reporting or perhaps of those more likely to remember?
</anecdote>
my casual interest in the research around dreaming has lead me to
believe that the two main functions of (human) dreams are: A) sort
through and untangle (groom?) ambiguities that build up in our waking
lives; B) practice a wide range of skills and ideations in a "safe"
context. Like a great deal of scientific studies, it is the unexpected
and extravagant which bubbles up into the popular science press and then
goes through another distillation as it gets rendered into doom-scroll
newsfeed lists...
Revonsuo's hypothesis is a specific example of B)?
It is worth noting that virtually all animals suffer badly if they are
deprived of sleep and in most? cases if they are deprived of
"dreaming"? Seems pretty deep in the function of neurobiology maybe
especially vertebrate and definitely mammalian? Seems like Cetaceans
(some? all?) do alternative lateral sleep/dreaming?
Not sure about Jellyfish... they seem to be dreaming all the time?
On 6/3/24 11:44 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
I do not find Paul's book completely convincing. Randolph M. Nesse's
book "Good Reasons for Bad Feelings: Insights from the Frontier of
Evolutionary Psychiatry" shows much more clearly that bad feelings
prevent us from doing things which are bad for us. They are threat
avoidance programs from our genes.
His remark about dreams are interesting nevertheless. He mentions for
instance this paper from Antti Revonsuo, "The reinterpretation of
dreams: An evolutionary hypothesis of the function of dreaming" in
Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 23(6) (2000). 877–901; 904–1018;
1083–1121.
http://behavioralhealth2000.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/The-reinterpretation-of-dreams-An-evolutionary-hypothesis-of-the-function-of-dreaming.pdf
Revonsuo argues one function of dreams may be to simulate threatening
events. They may help to improve threat prevention by predicting
dangerous situations and preparing us for unkown dangers. Some fears
seem to be hardcoded but this method has limits. For example we are
much more afraid of spiders and snakes than of cars and fast food
which are more dangerous to us in the modern world
https://nautil.us/how-evolution-designed-your-fear-236858/
-J.
-------- Original message --------
From: glen <[email protected]>
Date: 6/3/24 11:04 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Unpleasant dreams
I had a conversation with a psychiatrist friend of mine wherein she
assumed the dichotomy between "good feelings" and "bad feelings" (e.g.
an angry or relieved reaction to some thing like the Trump verdict).
Through about an hour of conversation, I'd tried to convince her that
dichotomy is false. Bad things are good and good things are bad. The
valence we assign is post-hoc. I failed, of course. But...
I feel the same way about phobias. It's a bit trite to suggest that we
like exploring our fears in a safe environment like at a movie theater
with a friend or two. But it's testament to the milieu that monsters
vs treasures is a false dichotomy. And it goes beyond some
complementarity like banking present pain for future pleasure. It's
truly a dual. The highs *are* the lows and vice versa. If there is
such a thing as free will, your assignment of valence might be the
only freedom you have.
I don't know if Bloom explores this aspect. But the body of work
spawned from Friston and the minimization of surprisal targets it
directly. It's reasonable to believe that *agency* is what provides
the common substructure for an explanatory model of the ascription of
valence to an experience. The hypothetical to explore is whether those
experiences that promote agency are more often ascribed as (or felt
like) "good" ones, whether painful, pleasurable, fearful, triumphant,
or whatever the token ascribed.
On 6/3/24 13:15, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Did you notice that some of the most successful movies from
Spielberg are about our deepest fears? Jurassic Park is about monsters
from the past. Jaws is about monsters which lurk in the deep blue sea.
Indiana Jones is about monsters (and treasures) hiding in dark tombs.
>
>
> Paul Boom remarks in his book "The Sweet Spot" that psychologists
have long known that unpleasant dreams are more frequent than pleasant
ones. Why is that so? Do unpleasant dreams prepare us for possible
dangers or are we just relieved that the are over if they end?
>
>
https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-sweet-spot-paul-bloom?variant=40262533840930
--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: 5/2017 thru present
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: 5/2017 thru presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
1/2003 thru 6/2021http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
