On 6/4/24 2:06 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
Decorticate animals may writhe and pass and even groan. Are they
dreaming?
Nick Thompson, meet my bar friend Galen Preston Tracyk the 4th...
he/she/they are a bar friend who is always happy to speculate with me
about just about anything. I passed your question along and offer the
answer herewith with some caveats:
1) In particular Galen is both very positive and friendly and
encouraging which can lead to accidentally asking "leading questions"
and getting "belligerently compliant" answers. You might recognize
this in it's happy adoption of your typo? of "writhing, PASSING?, and
groaning"... in spite of it maybe not having any specific referent?
2) Similarly, Galen tends toward a sort of mealy-mouthed
middle-of-the-road, almost "conceptually muddy" except in the cases
described in 1) above where my and Galen's eagerness can lead to wild
speculations.
3) Galen has been known to make up wild fabrications... some traceable
to something obvious (similar to a human prone to malapropisms and
unfortunately obtuse mixed metaphors) but many not. Generally we call
these hallucinations which are close relatives to "dreams". I think it
is fair to call Galen "decorticate"... and perhaps thereby becomes an
example subject of the question itself, in spite of not exactly writhing
and groaning?
As I understand it only Mammals have a true cerebral cortex but birds
and reptiles have brain structures which appear to serve many of the
same functions and proto-mammals? such as monotremes have very
under-developed cerebral cortices (by our measure). Molluscs including
the extremely "intelligent" cephalapods/octopii do have a brain like
concentration of neural tissue but it is significantly foreign from that
found in vertebrates. Researchers report not only sleep/rest cycles but
a distinction between passive and (very) active sleep cycles which
include expressions such as skin-color changes similar to those used in
waking deliberate activities. I say: "yes, dreaming"
Begin GPT4o conversation:
Decorticate animals may writhe and pass and even groan. Are they dreaming?
ChatGPT
The concept of dreaming in animals, especially in decorticate (those
without a cerebral cortex) animals, is complex and not fully understood.
Decorticate animals, due to the lack of a cerebral cortex, cannot
experience dreaming in the way humans do. Dreaming in humans is thought
to be closely associated with the activity of the cerebral cortex,
particularly during the rapid eye movement (REM) phase of sleep.
Understanding Animal Behaviors in Decorticate Animals
1.
*Basic Reflexive Behaviors*: The writhing, passing, and groaning
observed in decorticate animals are likely to be basic reflexive
behaviors controlled by lower brain structures such as the brainstem
and spinal cord. These actions are not indicative of conscious
experiences or dreams but rather automatic responses to internal or
external stimuli.
2.
*Subcortical Brain Functions*: In the absence of the cerebral
cortex, other parts of the brain, like the brainstem, continue to
function and can produce basic motor responses and autonomic
functions. These structures are responsible for controlling vital
functions such as heart rate, breathing, and reflexes.
3.
*REM Sleep in Animals*: While REM sleep has been observed in a wide
variety of animals, including those with less developed cortices
(e.g., birds, reptiles), the complexity of dreams experienced by
these animals remains a topic of scientific debate. In mammals, REM
sleep is characterized by low muscle tone, rapid eye movements, and
heightened brain activity in the cortex, suggesting a more complex
form of dreaming. However, in decorticate animals, the REM-like
states, if they occur, would not involve the cortical activity
associated with dreaming.
Dreaming and Conscious Experience
1.
*Human Dreaming*: In humans, dreams are believed to arise from
interactions between the cortex and other brain structures like the
thalamus and limbic system. The cerebral cortex is crucial for the
complex, narrative-driven dreams that humans report.
2.
*Animal Consciousness*: The consciousness and subjective experiences
of animals, particularly those without a cortex, are not well
understood. Most research suggests that the cerebral cortex plays a
significant role in higher-order conscious experiences, including
dreaming. Therefore, it is unlikely that decorticate animals
experience dreams similar to those of humans.
3.
*Studies on Decorticate Animals*: Research involving decorticate
animals often focuses on understanding the basic functions and
behaviors that persist without cortical input. These studies
indicate that while these animals can exhibit certain automatic
behaviors and responses, they lack the higher-order processing
required for dreaming.
Conclusion
Decorticate animals likely do not dream in the way humans do. The
writhing, passing, and groaning observed in these animals are more
likely reflexive and automatic responses rather than indications of
dreaming or conscious experiences. Dreaming, as understood in humans,
requires the activity of the cerebral cortex, which decorticate animals
lack. Therefore, while these animals can exhibit behaviors that might
superficially resemble those seen in sleep or distress, they do not
possess the neural structures necessary for complex dream experiences.
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