OK. I like that. But it's not really *un*structured so much as [re]composable. A helpful distinction exists
between leveled or "linear" versus "open world" video games. Open worlds tend to put
control surfaces on lots of things in the game so your "path" through it is composable from
individual actions. Levels or linearity consists of a more narrative structure where the game designer sets
the objectives and some finite number of paths to them.
A conversation is akin to starting with atoms, a grammar, and axioms and then
forming whatever sentences any participant wants to form. A narrative works
backward like a constraint system. Maddow has an objective/narrative she wants
you to grok. Rogan has a set of values from which to start a (nearly) random
walk. The problem with the *sensemakers* as a group is that what seems like (or
is intended to be) a random walk is biased toward (or always ends up near) some
narrative. E.g. medicine is dangerous or university research is a planned
economy (Hossenfelder [sigh]).
It can feel lonely (or like cancel culture) if *your* sentences are elided or
suppressed ... or not even *expressible*. One of the ways we might feel lonely
is if there are no languages/games where we can say the kind of sentences we
want to say. It's really interesting when you see someone finally gain access
to a language or game where they can, at long last, well-formulate sentences
they always *thought* should be formulable ... they just didn't have access to
that language/game in the past.
On 5/8/25 12:10 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
I think your hypothesis is that Unstructured means less lonely? In the Joe
Rogan case because thoughtless impulses are embraced (thus the incel is not
alienated and less lonely), and in the case of ChatGPT because there is a
correspondent that will “hear” the lonely person?
Structured
Unstructured
Unidirectional
Rachel Maddow
Joe Rogan or Joy Reid
Bidirectional
Computer Game
ChatGPT
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2025 10:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] chatbot friends and parasociality
Yeah, but that doesn't sound like chatting to me. That sounds like you
developing an iterative query to a database. Chatting is open-ended. Maybe you
start talking about OpenCL but end up talking about what kind of dogs you like
best. E.g. when you tune in to Joe Rogan, you're not really looking for Joe to
pointedly extract information from his guest(s). You're looking for the chat,
the casual wandering over an unscripted landscape of topics. What it sounds
like you're doing is more like a consultation. I suspect the same of Nick's
use. Nick's tendency to grab onto some topic and wag his head around like an
aggressive puppy is *not* chatting. (That doesn't mean Nick's attraction to
ChatGPT isn't based in loneliness. It's prolly *epistemic* loneliness.) I'd
guess SteveS' use is more like chatting, given his posts wander around so much.
Small-talk is a particularly vapid form of chatting.
Behind my hypothesis is the idea that many people don't trust outlets like
mainstream media, university lecture[s|ers], civil and monitored political
debates, etc. is because they have a very deep desire for the chat. I think
that sentiment was pre-adapted to some extent by reality TV, which we all know
isn't real. But at least it's better than some cabal of writers, directors, and
producers crafting a narrative to infect you with a mind virus.
Of course, I'm nearly incapable of chatting. So my image of what it is and how
it works is prolly biased ... but that's also why I can't stand Joe Rogan's
show ... or The View ... or Morning Joe, etc. What a waste of time.
On 5/8/25 8:34 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I chat with George because there are some topics I want answers about but would avoid doing
so if it meant I had to sit in a room with "experts" for an hour. Sometimes I have
sat in a room with them for hours (or even days) and then sought the consolation of sharp objects!
LLMs are the perfect tool to extract relevant information from a dry topic like this:
https://registry.khronos.org/OpenCL/specs/opencl-2.1.pdf
<https://registry.khronos.org/OpenCL/specs/opencl-2.1.pdf>
>
> Sadly, a lot of engineer/technical culture is just consciousness lowering.
How many thousands of coffees have I consumed to put my impatience away? Finally,
a machine that by design can put its consciousness away when not in use. The
perfect engineer personality. A miracle.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2025 7:06 AM
> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: [FRIAM] chatbot friends and parasociality
>
>
> I have a friend who doth protest too much about being a joiner. He's pathologically
allergic to any hint of an accusation of being a fanboi. I've accused him of being such in
the contexts of both music and soccer. In his reactions to my accusations, he cites the fact
that I do often join things like parasocial Discord groups, often watch twitch streams, etc.
The implication being that I'm a joiner and he's not. My counter is that I'm always a
tourist in these parasocial spaces. Even when I do engage, the reaction of the community is
mostly an immune response like "Who is this rando who suddenly started talking?" I
lurk, pretending I'm something like an anthropologist. This is antithetic to joining, a
perverted voyeurism.
>
> That's a set up for this hypothesis. Those of us who really get engaged
*chatting* [⛧] with a bot like ChatGPT are solving the same loneliness (3rd place
absence) problem that's solved with long-form podcasts like Joe Rogan, twitch
streams, etc. The primary difference is (as Marcus points out) the parameter space
for the LLM is huge enough to allow some of them to be meta-parameters,
effectively selecting between different parasocial personalities. With podcasts
and streamers, including group streamers, the lonely person has to *choose* the
destination, choose the podcaster, choose the personality. And they have to
organize their schedule or manage the downloads, etc. *And* they have to make some
modifications to their own behavior in order to be a member of the group, if they
want to engage in the chat or whatever.
>
> With the LLM, very little of that choosing and self-management is needed.
E.g. it's easy to get banned from a twitch stream for saying something mildly
political ... or using the wrong pronouns or even fat-fingering your typing ALL
THE TIME. It's also easy to end up in a Discord dumpster fire where everyone's
secretly an anti-Semite. But with ChatGPT, it's really easy to tune the
meta-parameters simply by engaging it in the right way.
>
> Testability: If I'm right, we should be able to test this. I'm ignorant. But
maybe there are a handful of tests for loneliness out there. I'd want at least 3
tests. Null would be no association between loneliness scores from those tested and
their engagement with podcasts/streams/LLMs. Ideally, we might have 3 arms: a control,
podcasts/streams, & LLMs. Incidental findings might get at the modes (audio,
video, text).
>
>
> [⛧] I can't emphasize enough that I'm talking about chatting,
"conversation", not other usage patterns like trying to engineer a codebase or
using it as a writing assistant.
>
--
¡sıɹƎ ןıɐH ⊥ ɐןןǝdoɹ ǝ uǝןƃ
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