Exactly --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, May 28, 2025, 1:54 PM Santafe <[email protected]> wrote: > No wonder it is, de facto, a trick question, at the same time Nick > maintains that he does not intend it to be, or to believe it is, a trick > question. > > On May 29, 2025, at 3:08, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> > wrote: > > My reasons for doing this is that the distinction between an air > temperature that is arrived at by compression and the same air temperature > that is arrived at through heating is crucial to meteorology, about which I > am trying to write. > > > Temperature is a state variable. That is inherent to its definition, so > if the word is to mean anything, its meaning is to include that. If > meteorology is a discipline within physical science, that is true in > meteorology as well as anywhere else. > > “State variable” means that its value tells you all it has to tell you > about its role. How it was arrived at historically is exactly _not_ > distinguishing of anything. > > Eric > > > On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 8:38 AM Alexander Rasmus <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Pieter got all of this, but I’ll pile on. I think Nick is intending us to >> think that the initial fill is the same on both sides, but he definitely >> hasn’t said this. The answer to the problem as stated is that the barrier >> will move left, right, or not at all. I think Nick is intending that the >> fill be the same, and that the answer to be that the barrier move to the >> right. The pressure in the right cell is lower as the density is lower >> (unless the EOS is real weird). >> >> What’s air Nick? You also messed up your corrected version and set the >> second initial fill temp to be the post heating temperature >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 28, 2025, at 3:02 AM, Pieter Steenekamp < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> I'm not sure if you deliberately left out any mention of the initial >> pressures — perhaps as part of the “catch,” which is common in trick >> questions like this. As I mentioned in my initial answer, it’s common to >> assume the initial pressures are equal, in which case the slider would move >> to the tight. >> However, if the twist is that the right-hand cylinder was initially >> filled with high-pressure air, then of course the slider would move to the >> left. >> >> On Wed, 28 May 2025 at 07:14, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks everybody. Anybody else? Remember, please no peeking. Your >>> efforts have already helped me identify an ambiguity in how I stated the >>> problem. Here is an edited version. See if that clarification changes any >>> answers. >>> Remember, no peeking before you kick in your answers. No herding >>> allowed. >>> >>> Side by side, butt-to-butt, two cylinders of air, of equal volume and >>> equal temperature, but different histories. They are separated by a >>> frictionless sliding divider which is now pegged. Before compression >>> or heating, both started with air at 10 degrees C, and after compression or >>> heating, both arrive at 20 degrees C. The left one has arrived at its >>> present temperature and volume by being compressed, the right-hand one >>> by having its volume set to the same value as the left, BEFORE BEING FILLED >>> WITH AIR AT 20 DEGREES C, and ONLY then having contents heated. All >>> compartments insulated, all manipulations quasi-static. Now, remove the >>> peg, allowing the partition between the two parts to slide, one way or the >>> other. Which way would it slide and why. What would your explanation >>> be? Please don't read others' answers until you have submitted your own. >>> This is enormously helpful to me. >>> >>> On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 10:19 PM Pieter Steenekamp < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Assuming the pressures were equal at the start, it will slide from the >>>> left (having been compressed) to the right. >>>> From the ideal gas law PV = nRT, both have equal nRT;s so the one with >>>> smaller V must have higher P and it would then push to the right. >>>> >>>> On Wed, 28 May 2025 at 04:59, Nicholas Thompson < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Side by side, butt-to-butt, two cylinders of air, of equal volume and >>>>> equal temperature, but different histories. They are separated by a >>>>> frictionless sliding divider which is now pegged. Before compression >>>>> or heating, both started with air at 10 degrees C, and after compression >>>>> or >>>>> heating, both arrive at 20 degrees C. The left one has arrived at its >>>>> present temperature and volume by being compressed, the right-hand one >>>>> by having its volume set to the same value as the left and then having >>>>> contents heated. All compartments insulated, all manipulations >>>>> quasi-static. Now, remove the peg, allowing the partition between the two >>>>> parts to slide, one way or the other. Which way would it slide and >>>>> why. What would your explanation be? Please don't read others' answers >>>>> until you have submitted your own. >>>>> -- >>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>>>> Clark University >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson&c=E,1,ziVMqgQPZgRZt2IX9KyStwbNAbv6u78did9vqAD5Uih4uYbBnttqs-1k-EDX73c0ME30LqPyv5hHTRzxTQW39aB7GsOlVgNUP-L72w6_X7TrSBRAT8KwUpP980MU&typo=1> >>>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. >>>>> --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,_WyvC-G843rNzWlXAG-gWG5WrSwTZQpQxiy6UpfBd3vMV-JB9j182IAtNrPSfchBmfaz-8A9NipMVxAhiLE_MKY-l6p66HzmhLJJ7reZrpU,&typo=1> >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,rotFY4sUj3JKtag9k01Yr_gZrbjI9FK0qcZnCuVz5S5b5hP1KhLuF7dM_ZRhDesITkohZFPTQIXAFWpmKX9bsEpRKQdBoKVox8-_5h88ZlkVn3-_xeCd&typo=1> >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,wbzBfwfdpg7ltPRpWppT6VGIObv2FWlvuCbK_UL_xnkzDHZ4975CzN7NQu-8LiVAcJcPplb0enxZ7rLalklW6rrUXirgOQGkWd9Q5zEwLfKuYhrFt5VRo1U,&typo=1> >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,iS0_ymZuUeeCNpMZ11yP6H532rC3HzKS2Vcb-shVZ2RlxBM4ydCOtIh1wpSzwmJsP5mUmWAVl_STJrLxAm1PSATRMkZjwYL0nf-HtpZMKOF9Z3aTP2l1OR4j2sNI&typo=1> >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. >>>> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,oukhnhi_QCTV4mi4R-gpYPpbYPbxGf9NeegXLgHj3jYOiJ7LncohyPXvvYNZEdxTlq49XLDHuwaRnEwFK-vyds8xp9Fox6FI2gvYgmx7tGrMzPyt&typo=1> >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,jNZRq9v4HTwdpqF-Bv_8ELiETEJ8Yu-bQxkhY2lp5CjhfBexih4ix7YIyw4DNQzBC9o2cTluBJqEke339KV4wKO-36Wfll6fqF_cDGtR4wzOcw,,&typo=1> >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,R77q2nxlQAHE6SSAB1R6dbKe7StAPox_pp5g8eGGtIbqdCOTWitZxFhU3Jm_x5nkFGfZelB-VjU17G-uF-6GjS8HWaVQjBDUG5QvYXolozI6CXPrwNc,&typo=1> >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,h227__fz4NWFKt8ywYBrGWEu1aNgHYeX9tBqfrumVMlKCsOty0xg2kD8S9MuNZBaV2VVylN7QU9o8Y73xzAfKF0ksDd0m768B3pK5oewGg,,&typo=1> >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nicholas S. 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