The way I talk to George or his colleagues is to ask for a definite version of my underspecified idea – for code. Then I can either read that code, run the code one way or another (Claude will do it directly), or ask for an interpretation of the proposed code in natural language. The code must fill-in all underspecified parts to be runnable. This helps to avoid ambiguity about intended meaning. In this way, the idea becomes clear enough to be falsifiable and debuggable.
From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2025 7:24 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Entropy Redux Hmmm! Just so's you know, my way of working with george is no different from my way of working with you guys. Just as I would never steal a paragraph from any of you and pass it on unattributed, I would never do that with anything George wrote. So far as I am concerned, George is a person. That I am probably never going to have a beer with him does not really distinguish him for Eric or Marcus although, of course, the reasons might. Youll be interesed to know that the ambiguities . you-all caught in my prompt were NOT caught by George. Indeed, George persists in slipping up every once in a while and claiming that the adiabatic compression of a gas increases its entropy. It's an easy error to make because entropy is often presented in spatial terms and adiabatic compression sure as hell reduces the spacial options available to the gas. But all of that is two steps beyond where I am now. At the moment I am still trying to design a thought experiment that unambiguously poses the problem.. Here is something I want toexplore with George, but I will start here, if anybody is willing toplay. Once the slider has been un pinned and it has adjusted its position, are the temperatures of the two compartments the same. Remember the slider itself is perfectly insulated. My temptation is to expect that the temperatue of the right half goes up. Again, thanks to you all. NIck Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 3:06 PM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Has an AI puppet master discovered an ingenious way to implement Reinforcement Learning from Human Feedback? Human experts may feel they don’t want to press YES and NO buttons for GPT outputs. However, if it is presented as a question is posed by a human, then it may be accepted as collegial or pedagogical activity. From: Friam <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Santafe Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2025 1:45 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Entropy Redux Hi Nick, I realize that the discussion has become self-referential. (No surprise, that.) I said a specific thing, which was what I meant, even though lots of other things could also be said that are true, but that I was not talking about. But now I realize that my saying that involved a guess at what you might mean by your writing, and who knows: I could have guessed completely wrongly. So the sentence is non-problematic, but the question of its pertenance could be anybody’s guess. Of course a value for temperature can be arrived at by many paths. I would not say otherwise, and didn’t. What I said is that the role of temperature in telling what the state is comes entirely from its value, and that the history by which that value may have been arrived at has nothing to do with what the temperature’s value contributes to determining what state the air is in. I had said that to respond to your particular sentence My reasons for doing this is that the distinction between an air temperature that is arrived at by compression and the same air temperature that is arrived at through heating is crucial to meteorology, about which I am trying to write. which “sounds to me as if you intend some meaning like": the role of the temperature’s having some value depends on the history of how that value was arrived at. But I do have to admit, you didn’t say exactly what I just wrote, so I was guessing at what you might have meant. I gave up trying to track the descriptions of the system that you are sending to GPT, because I am underwater catastrophically for time and obligations. Pieter was right, though, to have brought in the concept of “trick questions”. For any given problem, there may be ways to arrange the description of what the setup is, and what you want to know, so that it is as easy as possible to be unambiguous about how the two are related. I try to write that way in technical papers when I can, because the alternative drives me crazy. My readers may say I don’t do a great job, but that is what I mean to do. There is another way to write, which is popular in physics textbooks, and that is to shuffle the system description like a kind of Atlantic City Boardwalk shell-game, to make it as confusing as possible to decrypt the English to figure out what the problem description is that the questioner is presenting. In textbooks, I understand the point: nature doesn’t present itself to you in the ways that are easiest to understand, so you have to learn to track the shell-game and re-arrange things into non-cryptic orders, as much as possible. Physicists also love to write Science and Nature papers in this tangled way because, you know, PPB…. No topic as popular as entropy for doing that, even though the topic is _not_ a problem any more. There is interesting stuff here. For me, it is reading these prompts, being totally lost, and wondering “What does Nick think he is asking?” The thermodynamic questions are easy. The human-translation question remains among the most perplexing I have to deal with on a regular basis. Eric On May 29, 2025, at 5:16, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Hi Eric I am confused. If you agree that the experiment as described is valid, don’t have also 2 agree that the state was arrived at by 2 different pathways Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson&c=E,1,_5Ntt3o1D9QukQlW9OTmjRo1Ns5Z4h4q0rRnw4UWraMzuwnArVC1Z8ZBPoxJKymPAlzFq-Qpg1PqGA2tXZfDhvzYImuoA-tSBqn7BKqhh5xX&typo=1> On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 2:06 PM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Exactly --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> Santa Fe, NM 87505<https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, May 28, 2025, 1:54 PM Santafe <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: No wonder it is, de facto, a trick question, at the same time Nick maintains that he does not intend it to be, or to believe it is, a trick question. On May 29, 2025, at 3:08, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: My reasons for doing this is that the distinction between an air temperature that is arrived at by compression and the same air temperature that is arrived at through heating is crucial to meteorology, about which I am trying to write. Temperature is a state variable. That is inherent to its definition, so if the word is to mean anything, its meaning is to include that. If meteorology is a discipline within physical science, that is true in meteorology as well as anywhere else. “State variable” means that its value tells you all it has to tell you about its role. How it was arrived at historically is exactly _not_ distinguishing of anything. Eric On Wed, May 28, 2025 at 8:38 AM Alexander Rasmus <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Pieter got all of this, but I’ll pile on. I think Nick is intending us to think that the initial fill is the same on both sides, but he definitely hasn’t said this. The answer to the problem as stated is that the barrier will move left, right, or not at all. I think Nick is intending that the fill be the same, and that the answer to be that the barrier move to the right. The pressure in the right cell is lower as the density is lower (unless the EOS is real weird). What’s air Nick? You also messed up your corrected version and set the second initial fill temp to be the post heating temperature Sent from my iPhone On May 28, 2025, at 3:02 AM, Pieter Steenekamp <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I'm not sure if you deliberately left out any mention of the initial pressures — perhaps as part of the “catch,” which is common in trick questions like this. As I mentioned in my initial answer, it’s common to assume the initial pressures are equal, in which case the slider would move to the tight. However, if the twist is that the right-hand cylinder was initially filled with high-pressure air, then of course the slider would move to the left. On Wed, 28 May 2025 at 07:14, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Thanks everybody. Anybody else? Remember, please no peeking. Your efforts have already helped me identify an ambiguity in how I stated the problem. Here is an edited version. See if that clarification changes any answers. Remember, no peeking before you kick in your answers. No herding allowed. Side by side, butt-to-butt, two cylinders of air, of equal volume and equal temperature, but different histories. They are separated by a frictionless sliding divider which is now pegged. Before compression or heating, both started with air at 10 degrees C, and after compression or heating, both arrive at 20 degrees C. The left one has arrived at its present temperature and volume by being compressed, the right-hand one by having its volume set to the same value as the left, BEFORE BEING FILLED WITH AIR AT 20 DEGREES C, and ONLY then having contents heated. All compartments insulated, all manipulations quasi-static. Now, remove the peg, allowing the partition between the two parts to slide, one way or the other. Which way would it slide and why. What would your explanation be? Please don't read others' answers until you have submitted your own. This is enormously helpful to me. On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 10:19 PM Pieter Steenekamp <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Assuming the pressures were equal at the start, it will slide from the left (having been compressed) to the right. From the ideal gas law PV = nRT, both have equal nRT;s so the one with smaller V must have higher P and it would then push to the right. On Wed, 28 May 2025 at 04:59, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Side by side, butt-to-butt, two cylinders of air, of equal volume and equal temperature, but different histories. They are separated by a frictionless sliding divider which is now pegged. Before compression or heating, both started with air at 10 degrees C, and after compression or heating, both arrive at 20 degrees C. The left one has arrived at its present temperature and volume by being compressed, the right-hand one by having its volume set to the same value as the left and then having contents heated. All compartments insulated, all manipulations quasi-static. Now, remove the peg, allowing the partition between the two parts to slide, one way or the other. Which way would it slide and why. What would your explanation be? Please don't read others' answers until you have submitted your own. -- Nicholas S. 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