Pete, I'm so glad you responded so eloquently to defend Arthur's statement about "evil".
Ray, I agree with much of what you have to say, such as "evil" is not a devil, but rather a multi-faceted process, act, belief or concept. I believe these are all man-made. Much of what passes today as acceptable has indeed evolved out of an appeal to our "ego" self (Greek sense--that side of mind which is in error), and is rarely recognized as sociopathic or even quite insensitive in its least offensive form. But I concur that all "evil" acts, so-called, are based in error out of ignorance. Has the theory of pathological genetics been proven beyond the doubt of sound psychology? Brain abnormalities, malignant intrusions or poisoning excepted, is there really such a new born who is actually "evil", or is it more a "characteristic" that will develop due to the family dynamics, habits and behavior, passed from generation to generation? Every family has its share of ignorance to pass on to the rest of the world, whether it be a lack of appreciation, outright aggression, or crimes against life; our challenge is to grow out of our misperceptions as to how life should be controlled. Trying to resolve any of these problems with the external double-edged sword is not necessarily a law of Karma. I believe Karma would require that a victimizer must at some point come to an understanding of why harm is wrong in order to further evolve--best within the lifetime of committing said crime--and capital punishment or torture usually precludes the time required to be able to change the victimizer's mind about how they perceive incorrectly. As well, Karma would put all onus upon the individual for their actions, whereas the family and the village raises the child, just as we cannot hold the starving child overseas responsible for its plight Karmically, when we know what contributes to inhumanities. Our collective ignorance the world over has become responsible for countless genocides. "Evil" should be recognized as mental illness in its extreme, and the ill-routed neural pathways must be re-trained, through gentle lessons, to take new courses--or we must strive to create better social/educational programs to make as obsolete as possible the dysfunctional family. Where the corporation is regarded by law as an individual, or politicians and governments grow crooked, we must create in unison laws by which all must abide that are immutable, like the U.S. Constitution was once known to be, though is now a Dodo because of some privilege that the President holds. Such privilege cannot be allowed. I would rather see Bush rehabilitated, if possible, not only for his own self but for everyone else's recognition of human frailty, a remembering of connectedness deep down, and realization that his death would not be our escape from the deaths or injustices that he legitimizes. Bush needs to do community service, big time! But it still takes an army to drop the bombs and pull the triggers. Will anything be done for the guilt of the individual soldier who carries out insane orders? Will anything be done for those who don't think the orders are insane? Laws like "Thou shall not kill" must apply to everyone for them to work. Justice is achieved only in loving or healing solutions, not through revenge or punishment. Healing is the only defense that is not a double-edged sword. It is the stuff of spiritual vision, which cannot see error, and merely looks for atonement. Solutions that the human eye seeks always fade out. Spiritual vision looks within and realizes the need for restoration. Belief in evil is like all beliefs: belief in good, belief in stereotyping, or what have you. It is a code by which we live our lives. We believe in them because we are programmed to believe or we come to believe them through our varied experiences because they are convenient or actually practical. On a larger scale we collectively believe in physical existence. We also believe in our own versions of truth. But our recognition of how these beliefs serve us at the creative level determines our happiness and understanding of what life is all about. If we continue to try to establish the so-called reality of evil, rather than our true inheritance as spiritual beings, the deception is extremely costly, and the inability to forgive only augments our fears. This equates to a belief that peace is impossible. Is this something to believe in? I equate it to the belief in a vengeful, jealous God, which is, in my opinion, belief in the impossible. If I'm going to be in awe of a "God", it had better be for One Who gives us free will, and shares in all divine attributes. I believe these gifts are our only reality and can be remembered, but not under tyrannical rule of self-loathing or guilt. We are part of Creation; if I am going to acknowledge Creation as a work of true power, acknowledge that there must be a source for Creation itself, I have no reason whatsoever to believe that evil, or any powers that are attributed to it, are responsible for it in any form because miscreation (error, "evil") has no basis on the creative level. Why do we accord it with any power at all? Are we addicted to it as some form of self-punishment because thus we hold something outside of ourselves to blame for our unhappiness? The above is not intended to proselytize, but to inspire a deeper look into what is deemed to be common truth. Evil is not understandable because there is nothing in it that is understandable. It is only chaos--so, good luck there. Absolving "evil do-ers" benefits neither victim nor victimizer, but understanding brings both parties to inner peace. If there are lessons that must be learned, let them be conducted under compassionate legislation. Warmly, Natalia ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray Evans Harrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: pete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:20 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] Killing its own > No, it is too simple to paint evil actions as ignorant or subjects of > pathological socialization. Acts are evil, actors do evil acts. One > could call the great monsters of history ignorant or subjects of > pathological socialization or just evil. In all cases it is severely > incomplete. Evil is a process that combines all of those things and many > others such as fear, instability and existential crises in ever new > integrations. Consider evil like a great mirror ball with many > possibilities, two of which are ignorance and pathological socialization. > But the theater teaches us to analyze character and to understand the rites > and rituals of civilization that define the corners of style. Sometimes > the examination of evil disappears into simple habit or belief in a common > good that was taken too far or applied in the wrong direction. For > example, why is Mengele a monster for his experiments but the army doctors > who gave smallpox and yellow fever to unsuspecting soldiers, scientists? > Why is Frank Luntz OK saying it isn't the thing in itself but how you frame > it that makes it acceptable? Goebbals said the same thing and his frames > were accepted by simply the most sophisticated culture on the planet at the > time. The evil I have seen is most often banal and ordinary and accepted > by everyone. Evil is not a devil but an act, a belief like the "drunk > Indian" or the "Negro shuffle" or the need to chop the arms and legs off of > a truth because it doesn't fit an accepted story. In the face of such > myths, the great Maria Tall Chief or the incredible burst of energy in the > black community from the end of segregation to the present is helpless. > > I don't believe that one can describe the Chomsky insight into the problems > of the current system as paranoid since he is so often prophetic. On the > other hand one cannot absolve the destruction of the blatent self-interest > built into the system as ignorant or social pathology. > > I have analyzed too many works of art that disappeared in the hands of music > theory and yet they were great works of art. I would suggest that both of > you dig a little deeper. Just because you can't understand it doesn't > mean that it doesn't exist. I think Karma is a good concept and I believe > in the return of evil for evil done. > > REH > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:32 PM > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Killing its own > > > > > > On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Ray Evans Harrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Arthur do you really believe there > > >is no evil in the world and that pure self interest will rescue us all? > > > > I'm with Arthur, there is nothing about the world for which the > > explanatory power of the concept of "evil" is not thoroughly > > trumped by simple ignorance and pathological socialization, > > and occasionally pathological genetics. There is something > > philosophically fundamentally broken about the whole notion > > of "evil" as a cardinal principle, wherein the "evil" actor > > must necessarily have a perfectly functioning rational facility, > > yet analyzes all situations, identifying the most wholesome and > > beneficial course of action, and while fully understanding that > > in all its implications, nevertheless chooses a narrow self serving > > behaviour regardless of its negative consequences to all around him. > > Sorry, but for me this doesn't compute, and the problem is in > > the premise. The actor is defective, not capable identifying > > the most beneficial course of action, and therefor his action > > is made out of ignorance. "Evil" is just a crude pole point for > > those who need to paint a world in primary colours to avoid > > the complexity and ultimately the paradoxical nature of the > > real thing. This is certainly not how I perceive you, so I > > simply presume we are having a semantic failure of some sort > > here, and by "evil" you mean something other than what I understand > > it to be. > > > > -Pete Vincent > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Futurework mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://fes.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://fes.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://fes.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
