> > I don't believe. I think -- as an engineer, I KNOW -- that modern man
> > can do better than cave man.
>
> That is pure opinion; just like religious dogmas saying they "KNOW" the
> TRUTH and the GOOD! ;-)
No, it's an empirical observation -- that's how science works.
I know because I'm living in a civilized modern society.
> Cave men and modern man are genomically 99.9+% the same.
Albert Einstein and Adolf Hitler were genomically 99.9+% the same.
So were the people of societies as different as 1970 Western Europe and
the ancient Roman Empire.
> > The problem is that the predators in charge
> > are stuck in cave-man thinking,
>
> Do you believe in unfettered free will? I believe we are ALL stuck in
> cave man behavior, but along the Bell Curve of ability, height, sight,
> ferocity, gentleness, artistic ability, athletic ability, spacial
> ability, math ability, etc.
My point is that modern society can and should choose progress instead of
a return to the stone age, which is a self-fulfilling prophecy by the
cave-men (sort of an alliance between Taliban and the Rockefellers, like
in the Carlyle Group ;-} ).
> Altruism is the exception that proves the rule. And it works best when
> people aren't circling the wagons against aggressors or very tough
> circumstances. Ones tribe/clan/village and state are valued for good
> reason: one lives there!
A stable civilized society is in the best interest of ALL -- except for
a few "war profiteers" (in the wider sense).
> > Would you agree to start population
> > reduction at the large predators?;-)
>
> In my sci-fi dream, all would be sterile at birth with breeding
> rights/capability switched on when earned via cooperation, education,
> and constructive behavior. (organic farming, waste minimization, etc).
Then the Wall Street types would die off pretty soon...
> > But actually, you don't debunk this claim -- rather, you confirm it:
> >
> > Your "evidence" comes in the section "Prospects":
>
> Gee, no other human (thousands read it) interpreted my words that way?
Millions have subscribed to Reader's Digest, even paying for it... ;-)
> Wonder why you think you are right and everyone else is wrong!
The cave-man faction isn't everyone else.
>> However, if you take a closer look, it is NOT the poor populations who are
>> clamoring for their own reduction, but it is the rich "elite" of puppet
>> regimes --usually installed by the former imperial powers-- that does so.
>
> So, you are claiming that Mandela, Nyerere, and a bunch more who are &
> were loved my their people are all shams?
Mandela has been a puppet of Joe Slovo, with the background of access to
South African gold & diamond mines (billions here again -- surprise!).
Joe Slovo was certainly in favor of reducing Black masses.
> Quite a revisionist history
Sometimes reality is ugly. But being naïve doesn't protect one from getting
screwed -- quite on the contrary.
>> The same "elite" that is squandering the resources of their own people
>> and selling them out to the rich "investors" in the West (not only oil
>> and metals -- they're even selling hundreds of tons of FOOD to the West
>> at bargain prices while their own people are starving). So, again we see
>> the scheme of rich guys with large eco-footprints telling the poor with
>> small eco-footprints how and whether to live!
>
> Indeed there are & have been corrupt leaders in many countries. But the
> majority of nations in the partnerships and South Commission were NOT
> seen that way according to my experience.
Can you list them? It's hard to find a regime that isn't puppets.
> It is easy to pronounce conspiracy theories ("scheme of rich guys")
That's not a conspiracy theory, but empirical observation. Just look what's
going on -- what they DO, not what they SAY -- and Cui Bono.
> but those thieves cut each
> others throats too if they think they can gain personally.
Perhaps, but usually they cut the poor's throats, and this is the topic here.
> > Then you go on_confirming my case_ by explicitly mentioning the
> > billionaires:
>
> Horsepucky. Those folks see war and environmental security risks to
> Western Civilization.
Come on, if the billionaires would be concerned about war & environmental
security risks, they would invest in completely different approaches.
But that wouldn't make them billions, so they do the opposite.
> They do not need more money;
Pathological greed doesn't ask about NEED -- they still WANT more money.
And more power. And getting rid of poor masses.
> in fact they give
> away more money each day than you or I will make in our lifetimes.
Their so-called philanthropy is basically a tax-evasion scheme.
Gates puts billions into Big Pharma and Genetic Tinkering, tax-free.
> You think what is underlined above is bad? Don't like women helping
> women?
It's necessary to distinguish the advertising from the real motives/actions.
Of course the billionaires don't stand in front of the microphones and say
"We want to reduce the poor masses as much as possible."
To avoid resistance, they have to pose as philanthropic angels who just help.
And Gates knows a lot about hypocritical Orwellian PR, just watch M$
advertising and how much it has to do with reality...
>> If these billionaires would really care for the environment, they wouldn't
>> lead such wasteful personal lifestyles,
>
> Chris, the primary reason most people don't consume like a billionaire
> (or even a multimillionaire) is that THEY CAN'T!
But shouldn't those billionaires who claim to be environmentalists
WALK their talk? How can they ask from others the opposite of what they DO?
> > and they would spend billions for
> > the development of environmental technologies and the spread of green tech
> > to the developing countries.
>
> Some of those foundations are doing just that.
Then why is there no money for green tech development, but all the money for
polluting mining and sweatshop factories? Because they want to make money,
perhaps?
> But I'll only do the research if it is to win a charitable bet to donate
So you're making assertions without having done the research first, ts ts ts.
> > Also, it's quite suitable that you mention Al Gore:
>
> I posted a recent piece about Gore (the hotairbag one) He is not my hero at
> all. I have the letter in case he gets elected...I'll go to the media with
> it to hold his feet to the fire!
In your paper, you mentioned Gore as a reference of authority -- along the
lines of: If this great man says that population growth is the biggest
enviro problem, then it must be true.
But given the track record of the lying lawyer, including his recent gaffe
in front of the U.N., for which he had to apologize later, your quoting of
Al Gore is counter-productive -- rather: If Gore says it, it must be a PR lie
serving the vested interests! And that's what it is.
> What does that have to do with his (& my, & US Naval War
> College, & Isaac Asimiv & Homer-Dixon, & Bill Rees & the majority of
> Nobel winners in Sciences statements about the pop level of
> homo-superstitious?
It has to do with this that it's always rich big polluters shifting the blame
on poor masses to justify eliminating them.
> If the chart of human pop was labeled Buffalo, Elk,
> Cows, Bears, Gorillas, etc, every biologist I know of would label it
> "plague phase"
The plague consists of large predators -- and they are the ones who enable
China to surpass the US as the world's largest polluter, to make money off
the 2-digit growth with sweatshops and ore mining. But of course the
large predators won't admit that they are the plague. They shift the blame
on the Chinese masses -- which didn't have big enviro problems before the
investors showed up.
> We're going down the hard way, Chris. And I'll bet on it.
With cave-men in charge, this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
We still could change course by removing the large predators from power.
Chris
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