From: Keith Hudson [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 12:21 AM
To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION; Ray Harrell
Subject: Re: [Futurework] Why China won't win in this century
Ray,
I'd rather not hear about the Cherokees any more apart from the traits
they share with many other pre-industrial societies that have existed
and still exist around the world. They all -- in common -- have a great
deal to tell us about instinctual behaviours which show through in all
human organization.
Apart from the same instinctual behaviours which we still carry forward,
the Cherokees, as Cherokees, have nothing to tell us about the problems
mankind faces as fossil fuel energy becomes more expensive and as
automation proceeds.
KSH
At 16:08 09/01/2011 -0500, you wrote:
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01CBB017.65A77200"
Content-Language: en-us
I dont think I agree with either Keith or Mike on this. The
complexity of a billion people and the requirements for integration are
so immense that I would question whether those of us from huge areas
with minimal populations or Island nations with relatively small
populations could even begin to explain the issues involved. I was
delighted to hear about Keiths work on the Chinese
Dictionary. Thats a context that makes things more clear.
Keith, we have a Cherokee poet, and member of our community here, that
has translated four volumes of du fu with his own versions of the
poems. I find them beautiful. I would be interested in what you
thought of them. Hes gotten a good reputation here in the Chinese
community and is even making money on their purchases on Amazon. Its
called Murphys du fu. His name is James R. Murphy and he is also a
world expert on the math of string figures. Hes a shy recluse of
person and doesnt flash credentials as I do but hes a graduate in
physics of Harvard and has been an educator up until retirement. He
developed the string figures for students who were Math Phobic but could
be stimulated through hand/eye/memory work with string loops. His two
volumes of string figure books are also on Amazon. Hes a prolific
poet and has written many volumes of poetry. Most unpublished but hes
making money on the versions of the du fu and the string figures because
they are used as texts in schools for certain types of math
phobias. Hes currently working on versions of si jo Korean poetry
and of course Cherokee poetry.
Id be interested in anyones opinion especially Keith as the resident
Chinese scholar.
REH
From: [email protected]
[<mailto:[email protected]>mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of D and N
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:27 PM
To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION
Subject: Re: [Futurework] Why China won't win in this century
Add to the list below the study of the energy flows of the body and
acupuncture to treat dis-eases of the body (over 3500 years of use).
This style of medical intervention is still little understood by the
western world partly due to the arrogance of our scientific society and
the need for the present medical/pharmaceutical businesses to maintain
their grip on the lucrative resource at hand. Let's mention as well the
vast knowledge of the ancient Chinese of the medicinals of the natural
world and the Chinese achievements in astronomy.
The struggle to 'achieve' in anything (sports, technocracy,
business/economics, government, etc.) can lead to a blind arrogance
toward other aspects within a field or society or toward other cultures.
It is this unacceptance of 'differing ways and values' that can lead to
misunderstandings, conflict and disaster in the long run.
Darryl
On 1/8/2011 11:50 PM, Keith Hudson wrote:
Ed,
Yes . . . well I mentioned this in my piece. Over the centuries the
Chinese amassed a large number of inventions here and there in a vast
country which then drifted into Europe in the Middle Ages. The real
problem for China began at the time of the Ming dynasty (early 1400s)
when multi-masted ships (that is, international trade) was outlawed.
From then onwards they were no longer receptive to catalytic ideas from
the outside world. It's economy was large enough (and its internal
freight routes were adequate enough -- principally its grand canal
linking the 'export markets' of the north and south) for it to remain
viable, but it never made any great strides from then on. Its culture
and economy was largely locked and introverted.
The original problem (that the abstract scientific ideas of the West
from about 1700 onwards couldn't be immediately written down in
ideographic Chinese) doesn't apply any longer. (Now that they've
absorbed the ideas they can be written down in Chinese -- albeit in
railway length words!) The problem today (which, as I said, the
government is seriously worried about) is that their children and young
people are not curious or creative enough -- and they (not I) put it
down to the many years of intensive rote learning necessary to acquire
reading and writing.
Keith
At 12:28 08/01/2011 -0500, you wrote:
Interesting Keith, but despite the problem of their written language,
the Chinese do seem to have been able to come up with inventions in the
past. I recalled reading something about them having invented
gunpowder, so I looked that up on Wikipedia and to my surprise found
that they had not only invented gunpowder, but a host of other
things:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China>China has been the source of many
significant <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention>inventions,
including the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Great_Inventions_of_ancient_China>Four
Great Inventions of ancient China:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papermaking>papermaking, the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass>compass,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder>gunpowder, and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_typography_in_East_Asia>printing
(both <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodblock_printing>woodblock and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movable_type>movable type). The list below
contains these and other inventions.
The <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_people>Chinese invented
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_and_technology_in_China>technologies
involving <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanics>mechanics,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulics>hydraulics, and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics>mathematics applied to
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horology>horology,<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy>metallurgy,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy>astronomy,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture>agriculture,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering>engineering,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory>music theory,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craftsmanship>craftsmanship,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_history>nautics, and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfare>warfare. By the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warring_States_Period>Warring States
Period (403221 BC), they had advanced metallurgic technology, including
the <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace>blast furnace and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupola_furnace>cupola furnace, while the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finery_forge>finery forge and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puddling_%28metallurgy%29>puddling process
were known by the <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Dynasty>Han
Dynasty(202 BC AD 220). A sophisticated economic system in
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix =
u1 />China gave birth to inventions such as
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknote>paper money during the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Dynasty>Song Dynasty (9601279). The
invention of gunpowder by the 10th century led to an array of inventions
such as the <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_lance>fire lance, land
mine, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine>naval mine,
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannon>hand cannon, exploding
cannonballs, multistage <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket>rocket, and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huolongjing#Fire_arrows_and_rockets>rocket
bombs with aerodynamic wings and explosive payloads. With the
navigational aid of the 11th-century compass and ability to steer at
high sea with the 1st-century sternpost
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudder>rudder, premodern Chinese sailors
sailed as far as <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Africa>East Africa
and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt>Egypt.<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions#cite_note-0>[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions#cite_note-1>[2]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions#cite_note-2>[3]
In water-powered clockworks, the premodern Chinese had used the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escapement>escapement mechanism since the
8th century and the endless power-transmitting
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_drive>chain drive in the 11th
century. They also made large mechanical puppet theaters driven by
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterwheel>waterwheels and
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoke>carriage wheels and
wine-serving<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaton>automatons driven by
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddle_steamer>paddle wheel boats.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions)
The quote mentions agriculture, but not the intensive agriculture of the
rice paddie. I recall reading somewhere that rice paddies were partly a
response to the need to feed vast armies.
Despite the problems raised by their written language, the Chinese must
have had some way of encapsulating their inventions because they were
quite widely used. And in the case of Europe, it wasn't so much language
that was essential to the spread of ideas. Rather it was the invention
of the printing press and the movement away from Latin to the vernacular
that swept ideas across the continent.
If their written language presents a problem currently, there is good
reason to believe that the Chinese will have no problem in adapting. A
few days ago, I saw a TV interveiw with Justin Yinfu Lin, Chief
Economist of the World Bank. The interview was in English, and Yinfu
Lin's responses were in English, but in an English so thick that I had a
lot of trouble understanding what he was saying. However, he knew
exactly what he was saying.
My point is that if there is a problem, I'm sure that the Chinese will
find a way around it.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:[email protected]>Keith Hudson
To: <mailto:[email protected]>RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME
DISTRIBUTION, ,EDUCATION
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 5:44 AM
Subject: [Futurework] Why China won't win in this century
The reason why China will never win hands-down in its current economic
war with America is the same as why Japan didn't succeed in the 1980s
when all were expecting that its corporations and banks would eat
America up (Americans included). The reason is that both countries are
good at copying ideas and technologies; neither is good at inventing new ones.
It's their written language that's the main part of their problem. It's
non-phonetic. It means that in order to acquire a basic vocabulary --
of, say, 2,000 or 3,000 words (the content of their average newspapers)
-- children have to learn uniquely-shaped characters (whole words) which
have no, or very little, relationship with their utterance. A Chinese or
Japanese child can learn to speak his language quite as readily as
children do the world over, but learning how to read or write each
individual word takes many years. And there's only one way,
unfortunately for children, and that's by rote learning. And thousands
of hours of rote learning over many years under the strict discipline
of slave-masters in the schoolroom doesn't do anything for the
creativity of young minds -- or for older minds for that matter because
the basic mental skills are aptitudes are thoroughly laid down before puberty.
The Chinese and Japanese governments are well aware of the damage that
rote learning is doing to them -- and say so quite frequently. Although
both countries can churn out ten of thousands of science and engineering
graduates every year, there's scarcely an independent mind among them.
Independent 'garage inventors', as we have in the West, are as rare as
hen's teeth in China and Japan. For example, Japan has been
industrialized for over a century -- only a decade or two less than
other Western countries -- yet it has only won 15 Nobel prizes in the
science subjects. Compare this figure with those of America (261), the
UK (91) and Germany (88). China has only won 10! However, this
comparison is unfair because China's have only been won since it woke up
in the 1970s. America's number also needs to be modified because about a
third of its prizes have been won by foreign-born scientists who became
American citizens after migrating there.
It's all Emperor Qin Shi Huang's fault (yes, the same as is famed for
his terracotta army). Once Qin had conquered several countries and
unified China in 221BC, he standardized as many things as possible from
weights and measures and currency through to the written language. All
the various scholars throughout his empire, speaking scores of different
languages (some with and some without a written form) were forced -- on
pain of death -- to produce a composite, but common, written language.
And this could only be non-phonetic, of course. Even the mighty power of
Emperor Qin couldn't force millions of his subjects to learn a new
common spoken language but he could certainly force his relatively few
scholars to produce a new common written one. One popular penalty in
those days was to cut someone through his midriff, mount him on a
platter of hot tar and take him around the town, gesticulating and
shouting before he expired.
And herein lies a paradox, because the industrial revolution in Europe
would never have happened without starting from a basic stock of scores
of innovations -- such as canal locks, differential gears, sowing grain
in rows and so forth -- that had drifted in from China along the Great
Silk Road over a period of centuries. However, this doesn't signify that
the Chinese had been more inventive than Europeans. But its common
written language had meant that when one innovation -- say a wheelbarrow
(very important indeed for both China and Europe) -- had been invented
by a genius in one tucked-away corner of China, then the local mandarin
could write and tell hundreds more all about this wonderful new device.
But what once had been an accelerator for both Chinese and European
civilizations actually became a retardant for China when the Western
Enlightenment and scientific revolution stirred into life in the 1600s
and 1700s. The Chinese had no way of encapsulating these new ideas. A
Chinese mandarin visiting Europe in, say, the 1700s or 1800s, and
learning about the new exciting scientific ideas (if he'd learned Latin
or another European language of course) had no way of disseminating them
widely in China because there he had no method of writing them down in
Chinese words that would have been instantly recognizable by fellow
Chinese scholars or engineers. He could only convey the new ideas
vaguely by speaking of them face-to-face when he returned home.
Thus Japan (which had inherited thousands of Chinese words) and China
were left behind by the industrial revolution in England, Germany and
America. They didn't begin to catch up in earnest until the the 1870s
(the Meiji Revolution) and the 1970s (the Deng Xiaoping Revolution)
respectively. And this is still -- largely -- where they are today. Both
the Chinese and Japanese governments are trying to phoneticize their
written languages but only very slowly, such is the cultural
conservatism of two thousands years to contend with.
What might be significant in China (though not yet happening in Japan),
is that all their college and university entrants have to learn spoken
and written English these days. All their top government officials speak
English and most business and science faculties in their universities
use English widely in their seminars. Also, thousands of their
brightest young post-grad scientists go to America or England for
research experience and qualifications. Indeed, once they are here for a
few years they become quite as inventive as Western scientists (if not
more so when you look at the authorship of many papers in heavyweight
subject, say genetics or particle physics). Unfortunately for the
Chinese and Japanese governments many, if not most, of the most
innovative scientific minds elect to stay in their adoptive countries
rather than to return.
But the problem is even more serious for China and Japan. Almost as
important as are the original ideas of innovative individuals is the
necessity of other individuals who will give a welcome to new ideas and
help to develop them. And it's this open-minded hinterland which is
still limited because of their deep, conservative, authoritative
cultures. Goodness knows, new ideas often have a hard time being
accepted in the West. Even here, the crazy ideas of yesteryear sometimes
have to wait until its die-hard opponents are dead and buried and a
brand new generation appears. Only then are the ideas seen to be not so
crazy after all.
There we are then. Japan came close to hollowing out America and Western
Europe 30 years ago with its superbly made (Western-invented) products.
China is threatening to do the same in the coming years. But the
innovative momentum is still with the West and this sort of cultural
momentum takes a century or two to die down -- if it ever does -- or a
century to acquire -- if it ever does in China and Japan.
Keith
Keith Hudson, Saltford, England
<http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/2011/01/>http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/2011/01/
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