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I dont think I agree with either Keith or Mike on this. The
complexity of a billion people and the requirements for
integration are so immense that I would question whether those of
us from huge areas with minimal populations or Island nations
with relatively small populations could even begin to explain the
issues involved. I was delighted to hear about Keiths work
on the Chinese Dictionary. Thats a context that makes things
more clear.
Keith, we have a Cherokee poet, and member of our community
here, that has translated four volumes of du fu with his own
versions of the poems. I find them beautiful. I would be
interested in what you thought of them. Hes gotten a good
reputation here in the Chinese community and is even making money
on their purchases on Amazon. Its called Murphys du fu. His
name is James R. Murphy and he is also a world expert on the math
of string figures. Hes a shy recluse of person and doesnt
flash credentials as I do but hes a graduate in physics of
Harvard and has been an educator up until retirement. He
developed the string figures for students who were Math Phobic
but could be stimulated through hand/eye/memory work with string
loops. His two volumes of string figure books are also on
Amazon. Hes a prolific poet and has written many volumes of
poetry. Most unpublished but hes making money on the versions
of the du fu and the string figures because they are used as
texts in schools for certain types of math phobias. Hes
currently working on versions of si jo Korean poetry and of
course Cherokee poetry.
Id be interested in anyones opinion especially Keith as the
resident Chinese scholar.
REH
*From:* [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *D and N
*Sent:* Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:27 PM
*To:* RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION
*Subject:* Re: [Futurework] Why China won't win in this century
Add to the list below the study of the energy flows of the body
and acupuncture to treat dis-eases of the body (over 3500 years
of use). This style of medical intervention is still little
understood by the western world partly due to the arrogance of
our scientific society and the need for the present
medical/pharmaceutical businesses to maintain their grip on the
lucrative resource at hand. Let's mention as well the vast
knowledge of the ancient Chinese of the medicinals of the natural
world *and* the Chinese achievements in astronomy.
The struggle to 'achieve' in anything (sports, technocracy,
business/economics, government, etc.) can lead to a blind
arrogance toward other aspects within a field or society or
toward other cultures. It is this unacceptance of 'differing ways
and values' that can lead to misunderstandings, conflict and
disaster in the long run.
Darryl
On 1/8/2011 11:50 PM, Keith Hudson wrote:
Ed,
Yes . . . well I mentioned this in my piece. Over the centuries
the Chinese amassed a large number of inventions here and there
in a vast country which then drifted into Europe in the Middle
Ages. The real problem for China began at the time of the Ming
dynasty (early 1400s) when multi-masted ships (that is,
international trade) was outlawed. From then onwards they were no
longer receptive to catalytic ideas from the outside world. It's
economy was large enough (and its internal freight routes were
adequate enough -- principally its grand canal linking the
'export markets' of the north and south) for it to remain viable,
but it never made any great strides from then on. Its culture and
economy was largely locked and introverted.
The original problem (that the abstract scientific ideas of the
West from about 1700 onwards couldn't be immediately written down
in ideographic Chinese) doesn't apply any longer. (Now that
they've absorbed the ideas they can be written down in Chinese --
albeit in railway length words!) The problem today (which, as I
said, the government is seriously worried about) is that their
children and young people are not curious or creative enough --
and they (not I) put it down to the many years of intensive rote
learning necessary to acquire reading and writing.
Keith
At 12:28 08/01/2011 -0500, you wrote:
Interesting Keith, but despite the problem of their written
language, the Chinese do seem to have been able to come up with
inventions in the past. I recalled reading something about them
having invented gunpowder, so I looked that up on Wikipedia and
to my surprise found that they had not only invented gunpowder,
but a host of other things:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
China <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China> has been the source of
many significant inventions
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention>, including the */Four
Great Inventions of ancient China/*
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Great_Inventions_of_ancient_China>:
papermaking <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papermaking>, the
compass <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass>, gunpowder
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder>, and printing
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_typography_in_East_Asia>
(both woodblock <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodblock_printing>
and movable type <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movable_type>).
The list below contains these and other inventions.
The Chinese <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_people>
invented technologies
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_and_technology_in_China>
involving mechanics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanics>,
hydraulics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulics>, and
mathematics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics> applied to
horology <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horology>,metallurgy
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy>, astronomy
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy>, agriculture
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture>, engineering
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering>, music theory
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory>, craftsmanship
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craftsmanship>, nautics
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_history>, and warfare
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfare>. By the Warring States
Period <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warring_States_Period>
(403221 BC), they had advanced metallurgic technology, including
the blast furnace <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace>
and cupola furnace <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupola_furnace>,
while the finery forge
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finery_forge> and puddling process
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puddling_%28metallurgy%29> were
known by the Han Dynasty
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Dynasty>(202 BC AD 220). A
sophisticated economic system in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns
= "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace
prefix = u1 />China gave birth to inventions such as paper money
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknote> during the Song Dynasty
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Dynasty> (9601279). The
invention of gunpowder by the 10th century led to an array of
inventions such as the fire lance
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_lance>, land mine, naval mine
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine>, hand cannon
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannon>, exploding
cannonballs, multistage rocket
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket>, and rocket bombs with
aerodynamic wings and explosive payloads
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huolongjing#Fire_arrows_and_rockets>.
With the navigational aid of the 11th-century compass and ability
to steer at high sea with the 1st-century sternpost rudder
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudder>, premodern Chinese sailors
sailed as far as East Africa
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Africa> and Egypt
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt>.^[1]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions#cite_note-0>^[2]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions#cite_note-1>[3]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions#cite_note-2>
In water-powered clockworks, the premodern Chinese had used the
escapement <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escapement> mechanism
since the 8th century and the endless power-transmitting chain
drive <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_drive> in the 11th
century. They also made large mechanical puppet theaters driven
by waterwheels <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterwheel> and
carriage wheels <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoke> and
wine-servingautomatons <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaton>
driven by paddle wheel boats
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddle_steamer>.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions)
The quote mentions agriculture, but not the intensive agriculture
of the rice paddie. I recall reading somewhere that rice paddies
were partly a response to the need to feed vast armies.
Despite the problems raised by their written language, the
Chinese must have had some way of encapsulating their inventions
because they were quite widely used. And in the case of Europe,
it wasn't so much language that was essential to the spread of
ideas. Rather it was the invention of the printing press and the
movement away from Latin to the vernacular that swept ideas
across the continent.
If their written language presents a problem currently, there is
good reason to believe that the Chinese will have no problem in
adapting. A few days ago, I saw a TV interveiw with Justin Yinfu
Lin, Chief Economist of the World Bank. The interview was in
English, and Yinfu Lin's responses were in English, but in an
English so thick that I had a lot of trouble understanding what
he was saying. However, he knew exactly what he was saying.
My point is that if there is a problem, I'm sure that the Chinese
will find a way around it.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Keith Hudson <mailto:[email protected]>
*To:* RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, ,EDUCATION
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Saturday, January 08, 2011 5:44 AM
*Subject:* [Futurework] Why China won't win in this century
The reason why China will never win hands-down in its current
economic war with America is the same as why Japan didn't succeed
in the 1980s when all were expecting that its corporations and
banks would eat America up (Americans included). The reason is
that both countries are good at copying ideas and technologies;
neither is good at inventing new ones.
It's their written language that's the main part of their
problem. It's non-phonetic. It means that in order to acquire a
basic vocabulary -- of, say, 2,000 or 3,000 words (the content of
their average newspapers) -- children have to learn
uniquely-shaped characters (whole words) which have no, or very
little, relationship with their utterance. A Chinese or Japanese
child can learn to speak his language quite as readily as
children do the world over, but learning how to read or write
each individual word takes many years. And there's only one way,
unfortunately for children, and that's by rote learning. And
thousands of hours of rote learning over many years under the
strict discipline of slave-masters in the schoolroom doesn't do
anything for the creativity of young minds -- or for older minds
for that matter because the basic mental skills are aptitudes are
thoroughly laid down before puberty.
The Chinese and Japanese governments are well aware of the damage
that rote learning is doing to them -- and say so quite
frequently. Although both countries can churn out ten of
thousands of science and engineering graduates every year,
there's scarcely an independent mind among them. Independent
'garage inventors', as we have in the West, are as rare as hen's
teeth in China and Japan. For example, Japan has been
industrialized for over a century -- only a decade or two less
than other Western countries -- yet it has only won 15 Nobel
prizes in the science subjects. Compare this figure with those of
America (261), the UK (91) and Germany (88). China has only won
10! However, this comparison is unfair because China's have only
been won since it woke up in the 1970s. America's number also
needs to be modified because about a third of its prizes have
been won by foreign-born scientists who became American citizens
after migrating there.
It's all Emperor Qin Shi Huang's fault (yes, the same as is famed
for his terracotta army). Once Qin had conquered several
countries and unified China in 221BC, he standardized as many
things as possible from weights and measures and currency through
to the written language. All the various scholars throughout his
empire, speaking scores of different languages (some with and
some without a written form) were forced -- on pain of death --
to produce a composite, but common, written language. And this
could only be non-phonetic, of course. Even the mighty power of
Emperor Qin couldn't force millions of his subjects to learn a
new common */spoken/* language but he could certainly force his
relatively few scholars to produce a new common */written/* one.
One popular penalty in those days was to cut someone through his
midriff, mount him on a platter of hot tar and take him around
the town, gesticulating and shouting before he expired.
And herein lies a paradox, because the industrial revolution in
Europe would never have happened without starting from a basic
stock of scores of innovations -- such as canal locks,
differential gears, sowing grain in rows and so forth -- that had
drifted in from China along the Great Silk Road over a period of
centuries. However, this doesn't signify that the Chinese had
been more inventive than Europeans. But its common written
language had meant that when one innovation -- say a wheelbarrow
(very important indeed for both China and Europe) -- had been
invented by a genius in one tucked-away corner of China, then the
local mandarin could write and tell hundreds more all about this
wonderful new device.
But what once had been an accelerator for both Chinese and
European civilizations actually became a retardant for China when
the Western Enlightenment and scientific revolution stirred into
life in the 1600s and 1700s. The Chinese had no way of
encapsulating these new ideas. A Chinese mandarin visiting Europe
in, say, the 1700s or 1800s, and learning about the new exciting
scientific ideas (if he'd learned Latin or another European
language of course) had no way of disseminating them widely in
China because there he had no method of writing them down in
Chinese words that would have been instantly recognizable by
fellow Chinese scholars or engineers. He could only convey the
new ideas vaguely by speaking of them face-to-face when he
returned home.
Thus Japan (which had inherited thousands of Chinese words) and
China were left behind by the industrial revolution in England,
Germany and America. They didn't begin to catch up in earnest
until the the 1870s (the Meiji Revolution) and the 1970s (the
Deng Xiaoping Revolution) respectively. And this is still --
largely -- where they are today. Both the Chinese and Japanese
governments are trying to phoneticize their written languages but
only very slowly, such is the cultural conservatism of two
thousands years to contend with.
What might be significant in China (though not yet happening in
Japan), is that all their college and university entrants have to
learn spoken and written English these days. All their top
government officials speak English and most business and science
faculties in their universities use English widely in their
seminars. Also, thousands of their brightest young post-grad
scientists go to America or England for research experience and
qualifications. Indeed, once they are here for a few years they
become quite as inventive as Western scientists (if not more so
when you look at the authorship of many papers in heavyweight
subject, say genetics or particle physics). Unfortunately for the
Chinese and Japanese governments many, if not most, of the most
innovative scientific minds elect to stay in their adoptive
countries rather than to return.
But the problem is even more serious for China and Japan. Almost
as important as are the original ideas of innovative individuals
is the necessity of other individuals who will give a welcome to
new ideas and help to develop them. And it's this open-minded
hinterland which is still limited because of their deep,
conservative, authoritative cultures. Goodness knows, new ideas
often have a hard time being accepted in the West. Even here, the
crazy ideas of yesteryear sometimes have to wait until its
die-hard opponents are dead and buried and a brand new generation
appears. Only then are the ideas seen to be not so crazy after all.
There we are then. Japan came close to hollowing out America and
Western Europe 30 years ago with its superbly made
(Western-invented) products. China is threatening to do the same
in the coming years. But the innovative momentum is still with
the West and this sort of cultural momentum takes a century or
two to die down -- if it ever does -- or a century to acquire --
if it ever does in China and Japan.
Keith
Keith Hudson, Saltford, England
http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/2011/01/
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http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/2011/01/
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