They don't like each other, they just wanted an open market.
REH From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ed Weick Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 10:40 AM To: 'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION' Subject: Re: [Futurework] china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-provincal-borrowers-defer- loan-payments And people will also continue to want boundaries that include them and exclude others - i.e. they'll want the continuation of some sense of the "nation state". They will want leadership and police and military forces that protect their interests. One thing that will continue to change, however, is the relative power of the nation state versus the power of its various components. As an example, here in Canada it is difficult to argue that the federal government currently holds more political power than the provinces, and particularly the western provinces with their oil and gas resources. Keith, you say: "Major nationalistic wars that change territorial boundaries are now unthinkable, given modern nuclear weapons." Well, yes, but wasn't one of the ideas behind the European Union that people should be able to move freely from one state to another? And if they did, might that not render boundaries obsolescent? Perhaps eventually, if it succeeded, the EU might itself morph into something like a nation state. However, given what is now happening to the EU, that is most unlikely in the foreseeable future. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Arthur Cordell <mailto:[email protected]> To: 'Keith Hudson' <mailto:[email protected]> ; 'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION' <mailto:[email protected]> ; 'Ed Weick' <mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 9:38 AM Subject: RE: [Futurework] china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-provincal-borrowers-defer- loan-payments But some of sort of hierarchy will re-assert itself even as the old hierarchies break down. People seem to want to know that there is someone somewhere who "knows" what is going on and will act accordingly. i.e., that there is someone at the helm, of the company, nation, tribe, etc. arthur From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Keith Hudson Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 3:54 AM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION; Ed Weick Subject: Re: [Futurework] china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-provincal-borrowers-defer- loan-payments Ed, I go along with most of what you've written. I, too, am generally optimistic about the future -- the longer-term future, that is. It's the short-term future that worries me. New eras, epochs or cultures don't normally glide peacefully from one to the next like the passing of clouds or the rising of the sun. More usually there are catastrophic events in between -- or at least long periods of poverty -- and it's this that I fear for my grandchildren. I think the key to getting a faint glimpse of tomorrow's world is that the nation-state as we know it today is no longer the 'natural' entity when describing the economics of survival. The vast majority are the accidental byproducts of artillery warfare and geography (more strictly, the layout of rivers, roads and railways along which regiments travelled during their wars and the putting down of insurrections). Major nationalistic wars that change territorial boundaries are now unthinkable, given modern nuclear weapons. As to their economics, most, if not all, advanced nation-state governments are now technically bankrupt. National budgets and balance sheets no longer make any sort of sense, becoming increasingly and inextricably bound up with those of the big commercial banks -- which are also mostly bankrupt. Although average standards of living can be compared between different nations, the figures don't really make much sense because there are huge differences of wealth and poverty within them all as between different regions, cities and even specific locales within cities. Although the above is only a glimpse I think it will prove to be extremely relevant as to precisely how tomorrow's era will unfold. Keith At 22:35 28/12/2011, you wrote: When I think about it, what I fear most is the waves of pessimism sweeping over the global landscape -- wave after wave of darkness blotting out any prospect of ever seeing the sun. It's as though, everything is dark and gloomy and will stay that way forever. What we forget is that we've been here before -- many times. Empires have arisen and empires have collapsed. Great ideas were put into practice and were then no longer great. Religions arose out of our sense of beauty and duty but then became repressive dogmas. Science and medicine made huge differences to public health in the 18th and 19th centuries but then led to an exploding global population. The innovative technology of the past couple of centuries made things very much easier for the working man, but is now taking away his job. Throughout, however, we've survived and moved on to the next epochal change, and that is what we may have to do again. Right now, the European Union, originally a beautiful idea, is under a great deal of stress and may not survive. The USSR, a brutal machine founded on the humane thinking of Marx, is long gone. China has moved from the same humane thoughts to a brutal but vulnerable system of state capitalism. America, once the hope of the world, is deadlocked in its own ideological battles. But let's not worry, the dark clouds will pass -- maybe. By the end of this century, or perhaps even earlier, there will have been major shifts of power and organization. Things like the Arab Spring, the Occupy movement, and the rise against the Putinization of Russia certainly suggest that the dark clouds will move on and the sun will shine again. But only for a time, until the next wave of dark clouds roll in. OK. I'm an old guy, and the older you are right now, the more optimistic you can feel. Whatever happens next won't be my problem, it'll be the problem of the guys who are jumping up and down shouting they're the 99 percent. It's their inheritance and I'm glad to be able to pass it on to them. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Harrell" <[email protected]> To: "'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION,EDUCATION'" < [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework]china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-provincal-borrowers -defer-loan-payments > "before the skull and bones takes over the world." > > > You missed that? > > REH > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [ mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ] On Behalf Of D and N > Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 1:15 PM > To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION > Subject: Re: [Futurework] > china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-provincal-borrowers-defer-loan- > payments > > Yep. With all this richness around us; with all the wealth of artistry > going to waste, the world is somehow broke or is that only broken - > meaning we could fix it ... if the banks were shut down. I know - too > difficult. But a big change has to occur before the skull and bones > takes over the world. > > D. > > > > On 12/27/2011 7:47 PM, Ray Harrell wrote: >> So now the whole world is broke. Humm! >> >> REH >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [ mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ] On Behalf Of michael > gurstein >> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 10:05 PM >> To: Futurework >> Subject: [Futurework] >> > china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-provincal-borrowers-defer-loan- >> payments >> >> > http://www.zerohedge.com/news/china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-p >> rovincal-borrowers-defer-loan-payments >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Futurework mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Futurework mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework >> > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework Keith Hudson, Saltford, England http://allisstatus.wordpress.com <http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/>
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