Ed,
Comments below:
At 15:40 29/12/2011, you wrote:
And people will also continue to want boundaries that include them
and exclude others - i.e. they'll want the continuation of some
sense of the "nation state". They will want leadership and police
and military forces that protect their interests.
I agree. There'll always be governance of some sort, of which the
most important aspect of all is a just application of law -- and
something which is as close as possible to what used to be common law.
(EW) One thing that will continue to change, however, is the
relative power of the nation state versus the power of its various
components. As an example, here in Canada it is difficult to argue
that the federal government currently holds more political power
than the provinces, and particularly the western provinces with
their oil and gas resources.
Keith, you say: "Major nationalistic wars that change territorial
boundaries are now unthinkable, given modern nuclear
weapons." Well, yes, but wasn't one of the ideas behind the
European Union that people should be able to move freely from one
state to another?
(KH) Well, that was the idea in 1958 when the EU's predecessor (the
European Economic Union) started -- the free movement of people,
goods, services and capital. However, it hasn't happened in the case
of those professions and trades which had already protected their
high earnings (e.g. by exams, time-serving, school origins, etc)
against too many entrants from the wider young. Being successful in
their own country, these job-unions were hardly likely to open up to
foreigners also! All these jobs are probably of much the same
standard in all the European countries but I don't think there's been
a single case yet whereby there's been an equalization of paper
qualifications and the totally free movement of these jobs.
(EW) And if they did, might that not render boundaries
obsolescent? Perhaps eventually, if it succeeded, the EU might
itself morph into something like a nation state. However, given
what is now happening to the EU, that is most unlikely in the
foreseeable future.
Most unlikely because there isn't a European Government. A wide
population (of different cultures) can only be brought into the
condition of what we now call a nation-state by force, whereby
differences (language, habits, laws, religions, etc) are ruthlessly
eliminated. And this has to be maintained for a few generations at
least. (It's an interesting paradox that the most totalitarian
government -- the Chinese -- knows that it can't suppress everything.
Relatively trivial differences -- in clothes and folk arts -- are
allowed, even encouraged to show how 'liberal' it is.)
Keith
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:[email protected]>Arthur Cordell
To: <mailto:[email protected]>'Keith Hudson' ;
<mailto:[email protected]>'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME
DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION' ; <mailto:[email protected]>'Ed Weick'
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 9:38 AM
Subject: RE: [Futurework]
china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-provincal-borrowers-defer-
loan-payments
But some of sort of hierarchy will re-assert itself even as the old
hierarchies break down. People seem to want to know that there is
someone somewhere who "knows" what is going on and will act
accordingly. i.e., that there is someone at the helm, of the
company, nation, tribe, etc.
arthur
From:
<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Keith Hudson
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 3:54 AM
To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION; Ed Weick
Subject: Re: [Futurework]
china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-provincal-borrowers-defer-
loan-payments
Ed,
I go along with most of what you've written. I, too, am generally
optimistic about the future -- the longer-term future, that is. It's
the short-term future that worries me. New eras, epochs or cultures
don't normally glide peacefully from one to the next like the
passing of clouds or the rising of the sun. More usually there are
catastrophic events in between -- or at least long periods of
poverty -- and it's this that I fear for my grandchildren.
I think the key to getting a faint glimpse of tomorrow's world is
that the nation-state as we know it today is no longer the 'natural'
entity when describing the economics of survival. The vast majority
are the accidental byproducts of artillery warfare and geography
(more strictly, the layout of rivers, roads and railways along which
regiments travelled during their wars and the putting down of
insurrections). Major nationalistic wars that change territorial
boundaries are now unthinkable, given modern nuclear weapons. As to
their economics, most, if not all, advanced nation-state governments
are now technically bankrupt. National budgets and balance sheets no
longer make any sort of sense, becoming increasingly and
inextricably bound up with those of the big commercial banks --
which are also mostly bankrupt. Although average standards of living
can be compared between different nations, the figures don't really
make much sense because there are huge differences of wealth and
poverty within them all as between different regions, cities and
even specific locales within cities.
Although the above is only a glimpse I think it will prove to be
extremely relevant as to precisely how tomorrow's era will unfold.
Keith
At 22:35 28/12/2011, you wrote:
When I think about it, what I fear most is the waves of pessimism
sweeping over the global landscape -- wave after wave of darkness
blotting out any prospect of ever seeing the sun. It's as though,
everything is dark and gloomy and will stay that way forever.
What we forget is that we've been here before -- many
times. Empires have arisen and empires have collapsed. Great ideas
were put into practice and were then no longer great. Religions
arose out of our sense of beauty and duty but then became repressive
dogmas. Science and medicine made huge differences to public health
in the 18th and 19th centuries but then led to an exploding global
population. The innovative technology of the past couple of
centuries made things very much easier for the working man, but is
now taking away his job.
Throughout, however, we've survived and moved on to the next epochal
change, and that is what we may have to do again. Right now, the
European Union, originally a beautiful idea, is under a great deal
of stress and may not survive. The USSR, a brutal machine founded
on the humane thinking of Marx, is long gone. China has moved from
the same humane thoughts to a brutal but vulnerable system of state
capitalism. America, once the hope of the world, is deadlocked in
its own ideological battles.
But let's not worry, the dark clouds will pass -- maybe. By the end
of this century, or perhaps even earlier, there will have been major
shifts of power and organization. Things like the Arab Spring, the
Occupy movement, and the rise against the Putinization of Russia
certainly suggest that the dark clouds will move on and the sun will
shine again. But only for a time, until the next wave of dark clouds roll in.
OK. I'm an old guy, and the older you are right now, the more
optimistic you can feel. Whatever happens next won't be my problem,
it'll be the problem of the guys who are jumping up and down
shouting they're the 99 percent. It's their inheritance and I'm
glad to be able to pass it on to them.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Harrell" <<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]>
To: "'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION,EDUCATION'"
<<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 3:08 PM
Subject: Re:
[Futurework]china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-provincal-borrowers-defer-loan-payments
> "before the skull and bones takes over the world."
>
>
> You missed that?
>
> REH
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]
> [ mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of D and N
> Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 1:15 PM
> To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION
> Subject: Re: [Futurework]
>
china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-provincal-borrowers-defer-loan-
> payments
>
> Yep. With all this richness around us; with all the wealth of artistry
> going to waste, the world is somehow broke or is that only broken -
> meaning we could fix it ... if the banks were shut down. I know - too
> difficult. But a big change has to occur before the skull and bones
> takes over the world.
>
> D.
>
>
>
> On 12/27/2011 7:47 PM, Ray Harrell wrote:
>> So now the whole world is broke. Humm!
>>
>> REH
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]
>> [ mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of michael
> gurstein
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 10:05 PM
>> To: Futurework
>> Subject: [Futurework]
>>
>
china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-provincal-borrowers-defer-loan-
>> payments
>>
>>
>
<http://www.zerohedge.com/news/china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-p>http://www.zerohedge.com/news/china-insolvency-wave-begins-nations-biggest-p
>> rovincal-borrowers-defer-loan-payments
>>
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Keith Hudson, Saltford, England
<http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/>http://allisstatus.wordpress.com
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Keith Hudson, Saltford, England http://allisstatus.wordpress.com
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