Of course the Hopi are in a cultural box. The point is that we can have
access to important insights that we otherwise could not have if we don't
get out of our own box.
Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting your comment, but do you somehow
have the impression that I'm saying that Hopi values are all good and ours
are all bad, or something like that? Because I'm not. I'm trying to say that
if we stay in our own box we cannot solve the problems that are the result
of the restrictions imposed by that box. Of course that is true for all
cultures; for all boxes.
Wittgenstein put it this way:
Logic fills the world: the limits of the world are
also its limits.
We cannot therefore say in logic: this and this
there is in the world, that there is not.
For that would apparently presuppose that
we exclude certain possibilities, and this
cannot be the case since otherwise logic must
get outside the limits of the world: that is, if it
could consider these limits from the other side
also.
What we cannot think, we cannot think: we
cannot therefore say what we cannot think.
>From his *Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus*, pp.149-151.
There more:
The solution to the riddle of life in space and time
lies *outside* space and time
p. 185
There is a wonderful explication of some of these ideas in a great book by
Paul Watzlawick, Hanet Beavin and Don Jackson. the book is *Pragmatics of
Human Communication*. I have taken these quotes from that book, pp. 270,271.
Interestingly, this book is dedicated to Gregory Bateson who also did some
wonderful work in the same area.
Selma
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Selma Singer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Brian McAndrews"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: NYTimes.com Article: Indian Languages: Tending the Flame
> Selma,
>
> Aren't the Hopi in a cultural box, too?
>
> They just don't know "non-water".
>
> Or, perhaps the discussion should be about the affect of the observer on
> the observation..
>
> Harry
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Brian wrote:
>
> >From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Brian McAndrews
> >To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Selma Singer
> >Cc: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:04 PM
> >Subject: Re: NYTimes.com Article: Indian Languages: Tending the Flame
> >
> >At 5:43 PM -0500 11/18/02, Selma Singer wrote:
> >> Wittgenstein had a great deal to say about getting out of that box.
> >> >
> >> > Selma
> >> >
> >Hi Selma,
> >
> >Wittgenstein's entire adult life was spent doing just as you suggest
> >above. The analogy he often used was:
> >>To show the fly the way out of the fly bottle' (Philosophical
> >>Investigations # 309)
> >>? Amazing how concepts in-form us eh?
> >
> >A similar idea is that the fish doesn't know it lives in water because it
> >cannot conceive of "non-water".
> >
> >When I was teaching sociology, I used examples very similar to those you
> >included in your post, Brad, to impress upon my students the degree to
> >which language shapes human life. (I was rather shocked when I read a
post
> >on this list suggesting that language did not affect culture-I hope I was
> >misinterpreting that post).
> >
> >There were many tragic examples of this during the time the Bureau of
> >Indian Affairs was spending so much time and energy trying to force
Indian
> >children to "assimilate" into the larger "American" culture by running
> >their schools and imposing those "American" values as a matter of course.
> >Among the Hopi, for example, there was an attempt to teach them to play
> >basketball and to score those games. The Hopi had no difficulty playing
> >basketball and loved it but the attempts to teach them to score were
> >futile; they had no concept of "winning" in the sense that we understand
> >it and there was no way to teach it. LIkewise, when a child was singled
> >out in class as having done a superior job on something, e.g., an essay,
> >the child would feel humiliated because being "better" than one's peers
> >was not understood as good; it was not valued.
> >
> >When I plead for discussions about values in our society, it is often
> >these kinds of differences in values that I have in mind. I believe we
> >need to change our society in radical ways from its emphasis on
> >competition, winning, performance, etc. if we are ever to have a decent
> >society. It has to begin with childhood socialization and the educational
> >system.
> >
> >For many people, ideas such as these are unthinkable because they are
> >unable to get out of the cultural 'box' that so limits what it is
possible
> >for them to consider.
> >
> >Selma
>
>
> ******************************
> Harry Pollard
> Henry George School of LA
> Box 655
> Tujunga CA 91042
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: (818) 352-4141
> Fax: (818) 353-2242
> *******************************
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.416 / Virus Database: 232 - Release Date: 11/6/2002
>
