OK Lawry . Tell me again how the Israelis seized Palestine. 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence DeBivort [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:41 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Futurework] RE: Towards a sustainable balance

Arthur, just how did the UN 'seize' Palestine?
 
And, if it or any other body seized Palestine, would that not be cause for Arab and Palestinian resistance?
 
What do you mean by a UN 'settlement' in 48?  What 'settlement'?
 
L
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mon, January 27, 2003 10:03 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Futurework] RE: Towards a sustainable balance

Lawry,
 
Arabs dislike Israel not because Israel is rich, but because the Israelis seized Palestine
 
arthur
 
As Pres. Reagan would have said, "there you go again."  Funny I thought the UN settlement in 48 did that.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence DeBivort [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 11:14 PM
To: Ray Evans Harrell; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; futurework
Subject: RE: [Futurework] RE: Towards a sustainable balance

The Arabs are not as poor or as ignorant as you suggest, Ray. They listen to lots of news programs, from all sources. Remember that these are countries that readily receive the BBC, the French channels, USIA programs, Radio Moscow, etc., to say nothing of their own channels. More newspapers are read per capita in the Middle East than the US.   Do you know who the single most politically astute person was that I ever met outside Washington, DC?  It was an illiterate Moroccan Berber. He lived in a mud house with his wife and three children, and had electricity. He had two appliances. One was a naked light bulb hanging from his ceiling. The other was a short-wave radio. He listened all day, when he wasn't roaming around southern Morocco, to many radio news broadcasts. It was at the time that Dukakis was ruinning for the Presidency. He knew far more about US primary politics than most Americans did.  Muhammad al-Ahd, was his name and we spent a week or so together. He had learned, in addition to Berber and Arabic, French, English, German, and a smattering of Spanish and Russian.  I do not suggest he is typical, but he does shatter the stereotype of the ignorant Arab.  Arabs are just as smart as Americans. And they are no dumber about Americans than Americans are about Arabs.  In fact, Arabs probably know more, because America has been a preoccupation to Arabs for decades, whereas Americans generally have only bestirred themselves to learn about Arabs and Islam since September 11.  Can you guess what percentage of Arabs know a passable English? And what percentage of Americans have a passable Arabic?  So rather than seek for the cause of Arab anti-American sentiment in some shortcoming of the Arabs, let us seek it in America, and our attitudes and our polices and our behavior: let us make sure that we ourselves are clean before we go around trying to clean up others.
 
Arabs dislike Israel not because Israel is rich, but because the Israelis seized Palestine. Arabs (and many others) dislike the US more and more because of US arrogance and bullying, not because they are ignorant about the US. 
 
I am not saying that poverty can't ever be a source of political revolution -- it has at various times and places, like the French Revolution. But I don't believe that it is a significant factor in anti-US or anti-Israeli sentiment, and it would be a massive mistake and distraction for us to think otherwise.
 
Cheers,
Lawry
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ray Evans Harrell
Sent: Sun, January 26, 2003 7:49 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; futurework
Subject: Re: [Futurework] RE: Towards a sustainable balance

I question that  Lawry,
 
This is what I heard about the ideology of the Communists States for years.    I think their backwardness and poverty based upon the fact that they were a peasant society less than 80 years before they fell was only held at bay by virtue of their lack of information.   As the West outspent and flooded the East with information about choices and market plenty, those ideologies were hard pressed to proved their ultimate success.   Once the question was asked the hole was in the dike and the ocean was not far behind.  
 
How much television from the West in Arabic is there in the poorer Arab countries?    It doesn't really matter whether the censorship is from the KGB or the local religious organization, ignorance is ignorance and if that ignorance keeps them in squalor it is not long before change reasserts itself.    
 
If you don't know that you are as poor as American conservatives call "sinful" here, then you have little to be angry about or at least to focus your anger on.   I've been there too.   The expectation is what you have - where you are.     Once information flows into those countries in Arabic with Western products, do you really believe it will not make a difference?    Especially if these are products that have to do with illness, life and death and other ultimate issues.    Affluent Israel is an abomination to them because the Palestinians don't realize that they are the poorest of the poor and their elites have been flowing in and out of the West's stores and businesses on the backs of their people's poverty.   Am I wrong?     I can only tell you what I see.   I don't have good feelings about people who do such things here either as is clear, I hope, by what I have said thus far on this list.   People who are my own relatives and who do it to me are the most abhorrent of all.  
 
If they are kept in ignorance by their religion and their leaders then they don't know any better.    In fact there is a kind of childlike quality about many of the people that I have been on panels with.    They are subtle, clever and as good - as any American minority ethnic Neo-conservative - at Aristotilian argument tactics.   But when they are not allowed to set the parameters on the argument they are not as sophisticated as America's laziest news junkies.   I would add that there are people of similar naivite's on the Israeli side as well.    People who would put their children and families in a Wild West situation on the West Bank.    That Brooklynite that walked into the grave of Moses and started firing cared little for his family IMHO.    Such people often are troublemakers and every group has them.    Our version is urban Indians who move back to a reservation and then try to "fix" the locals.     Our locals usually send them packing no matter how much blood quantum they happen to have.    I think the Israelis believe that they can show the way for these people and that is a kind of chauvinism as well.     I believe it will have to come from within and Israel may be able to help if they can get over their anger and stop the tendency towards looking for a King that is a part of their manual and was posted a couple of days ago in an editorial from an Israeli Newspaper on this list.  
 
But all you need to do is watch your child die for want of medical attention that is available elsewhere.    Fanatacism can carry you so far but reality is a great teacher especially if you realize that those who claim to be your friends, relatives and fellow citizens are playing you for the fool.    The psychology of the bombers could have been predicted when the great peacenik Rabin started breaking peoples bones for playing David and throwing rocks.    There is something about situations like this that makes people incompetant.    
 
They have trouble with "Wannabee" issues that are the same as trap Indian people here.   What needs to be remembered is that Jews will not forget that Israel is the birthplace of their relgion and that the other two groups grew out of the Jewish Genesis.    It would be easy to do away with these three group myths being propogated.    Just have an Internationla scientific body come in and dig up the countries and tell the truth about what they find.     But that won't happen because all three groups have told lies about the past.    The Christians about their lineage and their selective choice of which rules they follow, the Moslems about their lineage and who gave birth to whom, as if the prophet didn't appear centuries after the death of Jesus and the Jews about their treatment of women in their male oriented and canonized texts.   
 
Every religion does what it must to survive but there comes an accounting and which myths would each of these groups be willing to give up in order to achieve peace?    They should all remember the root of the word "sacred" in English.    Sacrifice and unless there is a serious willingness on people of truth and good will are willing to accept what is found then we will continue to have Christians praying for the end of the world and helping the Israelis to do that.     Have Moslems who use their texts to create old governments that don't work and are incapable of International cooperation and Jews who tramp into shared sacred places as if they were the only people in the world that mattered.   That is the opposite of the meaning of the English word "Sacred."     There is no sacrifice, just arrogance and insensitivity.
 
This is complicated but that is no excuse.   America is about to blow one of the world cultural treasures off of the face of the earth.   Children have been murdered in the hoarding of medicine and for political purposes on both sides and the sacrifices of our gallant soldiers covered with the same spent uranium shit that still haunts the countries where it was used for economic and expediant reasons.    It is time that we grow up and tell the truth.    When did the concept of social justice become a curse word and a person who wishes to see both sides of an argument in order to make a wise judgment become a disloyal "liberal."    
 
REH
   
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 4:34 PM
Subject: [Futurework] RE: Towards a sustainable balance

Greetings, Ed,
I think you are essentially correct in your assessment that a US attack on Iraq will aggravate the situation in he Middle East, and create a greater impetus for action against the US.
 
Westerners sometimes make the mistake of assuming that poverty and its alleviation are the keys to reducing anti-US sentiment. To the extent we are seen as imposing poverty on people, then, yes, the US is held accountable. But the terrorism with which we have become preoccupied is not motivated by poverty, it is motivated by our political policies and actions in the Middle East. Friedman would have us follow the red herring of poverty, when the cause of anti-US sentiment is much more proximate to US behavior toward the Middle East.
 
Cheers,
L
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Weick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 3:29 PM
To: Ray Harrell; Joan H.; Jane Harrell; Dawn Beam; Darcy Dunn; Ben & Roz Sleigh; Alex Sherker; Karen Watters Cole
Cc: futurework; William Ward; Tom Lowe; Tom Walker; Stephen Straker; Paul Douthit; Mike Hollinshead; Brian McAndrew; Keith Hudson; August Watters; Frank Hample; Dennis Paull; Lawrence de Bivort
Subject: Re: Towards a sustainable balance

With all due respect to Thomas Friedman, the situation is a little more complicated than that.  Yes, indeed, the Middle East is replete with young people who are willing to turn themselves into missiles rather than tolerate life as it is.  However, how many regimes throughout the region will have to be taken out, and how many countries democratized, before conditions are improved to the point where young people see life on earth, not in paradise, as their best hope?  It is just possible, more likely probable, that Saddam Hussein is something of a hero to the non-Iraqi young because, unlike their regimes, he has stood up to the Americans.  The Egyptian government receives $2 billion a year in civil and military assistance from the US as a good-behaviour reward for having signed a peace treaty with Israel.  How much of this money goes to alleviating the staggering poverty of the country versus the pockets of the rich?  The House of Saud has grown enormously wealthy by pumping oil to the west and, even though it has done little for Saudi Arabia's ordinary citizens, it is well able to meet its historic obligations to the Wahhabist movement, one of the world's most potent generators of terrorism.  Kuwait is seen as totally under the American thumb while Jordan, which lies immediately east of Israel, is supposedly an American ally, but with its large, impoverished Palestinian population, it is a potential powder keg. How will any of this be solved by taking out Saddam?  It is far more likely that it will be greatly aggravated.
 
Ed

Ed Weick
577 Melbourne Ave.
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----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 12:46 PM
Subject: Towards a sustainable balance

Greetings from the Pacific Northwest, where the East winds have abated and we are socked in with gentle rain. 

Everyone is trying to get their two cents in print before the President’s speech writers are finished with the final copy of the State of the Union speech, hoping to influence the thinking and presentation of an important, time-sensitive public policy moment that will be gleaned for the smallest details between the lines.  Friedman puts a lot of things into perspective we can understand while raising some contentious issues that need to be aired.

We are discussing consequences here, not just morality about preemptive force.  Conservatives used to have a strong voice on the intended and unintended consequences of government.  Today, with this White House, they have lost that edge.  Karen Watters Cole

The earlier column is at http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/22/opinion/22FRIE.html  I urge you to read it also if this subject is important to you.  

Excerpt from that:  What liberals fail to recognize is that regime change in Iraq is not some distraction from the war on Al Qaeda. That is a bogus argument. And simply because oil is also at stake in Iraq doesn't make it illegitimate either. Some things are right to do, even if Big Oil benefits.

Although President Bush has cast the war in Iraq as being about disarmament — and that is legitimate — disarmament is not the most important prize there. Regime change is the prize. Regime transformation in Iraq could make a valuable contribution to the war on terrorism, whether Saddam is ousted or enticed into exile.” 

Thinking About Iraq (II)

By Thomas L. Friedman, NYT, 01.26.03 @ http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/26/opinion/26FRIE.html

In my column on Wednesday I laid out why I believe that liberals underestimate how ousting Saddam Hussein could help spur positive political change in the Arab world.  Today's column explores why conservative advocates of ousting Saddam underestimate the risks, and where we should strike the balance.

 

Let's start with one simple fact: Iraq is a black box that has been sealed shut since Saddam came to dominate Iraqi politics in the late 1960's.  Therefore, one needs to have a great deal of humility when it comes to predicting what sorts of bats and demons may fly out if the U.S. and its allies remove the lid.  Think of it this way: If and when we take the lid off Iraq, we will find an envelope inside.  It will tell us what we have won and it will say one of two things.

 

It could say, "Congratulations! You've just won the Arab Germany — a country with enormous human talent, enormous natural resources, but with an evil dictator, whom you've just removed.  Now, just add a little water, a spoonful of democracy and stir, and this will be a normal nation very soon."

 

Or the envelope could say, "You've just won the Arab Yugoslavia — an artificial country congenitally divided among Kurds, Shiites, Sunnis, Nasserites, leftists and a host of tribes and clans that can only be held together with a Saddam-like iron fist. Congratulations, you're the new Saddam."

 

In the first scenario, Iraq is the way it is today because Saddam is the way he is.  In the second scenario, Saddam is the way he is because Iraq is what it is.  Those are two very different problems.  And we will know which we've won only when we take off the lid.  The conservatives and neo-cons, who have been pounding the table for war, should be a lot more humble about this question, because they don't know either.

 

Does that mean we should rule out war?  No.  But it does mean that we must do it right.  To begin with, the president must level with the American people that we may indeed be buying the Arab Yugoslavia, which will take a great deal of time and effort to heal into a self-sustaining, progressive, accountable Arab government.  And, therefore, any nation-building in Iraq will be a multiyear marathon, not a multiweek sprint.

 

Because it will be a marathon, we must undertake this war with the maximum amount of international legitimacy and U.N. backing we can possibly muster.  Otherwise we will not have an American public willing to run this marathon, and we will not have allies ready to help us once we're inside (look at all the local police and administrators Europeans now contribute in Bosnia and Kosovo).  We'll also become a huge target if we're the sole occupiers of Iraq.

 

In short, we can oust Saddam Hussein all by ourselves.  But we cannot successfully rebuild Iraq all by ourselves.  And the real prize here is a new Iraq that would be a progressive model for the whole region.  That, for me, is the only morally and strategically justifiable reason to support this war.  The Bush team dare not invade Iraq simply to install a more friendly dictator to pump us oil.  And it dare not simply disarm Iraq and then walk away from the nation-building task.

 

Unfortunately, when it comes to enlisting allies, the Bush team is its own worst enemy.  It has sneered at many issues the world cares about: the Kyoto accords, the World Court, arms control treaties.  The Bush team had legitimate arguments on some of these issues, but the gratuitous way it dismissed them has fueled anti-Americanism.  No, I have no illusions that if the Bush team had only embraced Kyoto the French wouldn't still be trying to obstruct America in Iraq.  The French are the French.  But unfortunately, now the Germans are the French, the Koreans are the French, and many Brits are becoming French.

 

Things could be better, but here is where we are — so here is where I am: My gut tells me we should continue the troop buildup, continue the inspections and do everything we can for as long as we can to produce either a coup or the sort of evidence that will give us the broadest coalition possible, so we can do the best nation-building job possible.

 

But if war turns out to be the only option, then war it will have to be — because I believe that our kids will have a better chance of growing up in a safer world if we help put Iraq on a more progressive path and stimulate some real change in an Arab world that is badly in need of reform.  Such a war would indeed be a shock to this region, but, if we do it right, there is a decent chance that it would be shock therapy.

 

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