We may be talking at cross-purposes here (wouldn't be the first time). When
I speak of changing values, I am always speaking in the context of changing
both individual behavior and institutional structures. I simply do not
believe one can be done with any effect unless both are done and in no way
believe any of this can be done effectively through violence.

Selma



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 3:07 PM
Subject: RE: [Futurework] Crowds and power (was: Why men succeed at work)


> Selma,
>
> As long as we all tell ourselves there is nothing we can do to change any
of
> the prevailing values in this society we, of course, guarantee that
nothing
> will ever change.
>
> arthur,
>
> I think we may do better changing behaviours than changing values.  In the
> long term you may be right but changing values can be messy: Remember Pol
> Pot and the Khmer Rouge.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 2:50 PM
> To: Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
> Cc: Salvador R. S�nchez Guti�rrez; Harry Pollard;
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [Futurework] Crowds and power (was: Why men succeed at
> work)
>
>
> It's an important consideration, Brad, no question about that.
>
> But I'm not sure it's a defining limitation on the changes that may be
> possible if enough people begin to think that we need to do something
> differently than what we are doing now.
>
> I know that, under the present circumstances, when we are faced with the
> overwhelming power of corporate money and a bought media, etc. etc, it is
> very hard to hope that there can be changes. Whether I am just holding out
> false hopes or not, I believe there have been other times in history when
> the powerful have reigned supreme and changing that seemed to be hopeless
> and, nevertheless, it has changed. The powerful in this country have used
> every means at their disposal to try to prevent the adoption of  a number
of
> measures that have come to pass (which the powerful are now trying to
> dismantle), such as the income tax, unions, medicare, social security,
etc.
> etc.
>
> As long as we all tell ourselves there is nothing we can do to change any
of
> the prevailing values in this society we, of course, guarantee that
nothing
> will ever change.
>
> I don't believe that the prevailing values of power, glory, material
> possessions, etc. are bringing a lot of people a lot of satisfaction or
> fulfillment. I believe those values can be changed. So I will continue to
> nitpick as much as I can, whether it makes any difference or not, it is
> something I have to do.
>
> Selma
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Brad McCormick, Ed.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Selma Singer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: "Salvador R. S�nchez Guti�rrez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Harry Pollard"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 1:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Futurework] Crowds and power (was: Why men succeed at work)
>
>
> > Selma Singer wrote:
> >
> > > So you guys don't think it's possible to conceive of a human social
> system
> > > in which power would not be the prevailing value?
> > >
> > [snip]
> >
> > I think the difficulty of constraining (etc.) the role of
> > power in a human social system varies more than
> > linearly inversely with the number of persons
> > in the system.
> >
> > In a face-to-face colonial/Federalist period
> > American town, or a classical Greek polis, or
> > a native tribe (or maybe Norway today???)
> > I think the chances are
> > far better than in "The Middle Kingdom" or
> > classical Maya civilization or
> > today's USA or China or India or Indonesia
> > or whatever.
> >
> > A second consideration is universal abundance.
> > As one of the guru Bubba Free John's book's title
> > goes (I have mentioned this before):
> >
> >      The Feeding Gorilla Comes in Peace
> >
> > Keep 'em hungry ("lean and mean"), and crowd
> > 'em in -- the Pearl River basin area of
> > China, which most recently gave us SARS,
> > may become the first 100 million person
> > metropolitan area!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >      TMTC ("too many to count")
> >
> > Also, read Elias Canetti's fine book:
> >
> >      Crowds and Power
> >
> > \brad mccormick
> >
> > -- 
> >    Let your light so shine before men,
> >                that they may see your good works.... (Matt 5:16)
> >
> >    Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thes 5:21)
> >
> > <![%THINK;[SGML+APL]]> Brad McCormick, Ed.D. / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >    Visit my website ==> http://www.users.cloud9.net/~bradmcc/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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