>From the original post, the only thing I want to point out is that OOP does not equal 'Maturity'. There are many more programming styles besides procedural and Object Oriented.
And while me and many others would like to see more OOP features I agree that it should not be at the expense of PHP procedural code. If you want pure OOP, then you're probably using the wrong language. -e On 6/16/08 6:25 AM, "Jurriën Stutterheim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Darcy, > > > Thanks for sharing your view on things! The article you linked looks > very interesting, and I'll read it as soon as possible. > > You are absolutely right when you say that a great deal of PHP's > success is due to the fact that it's very easy for beginners to get > started. The fact that it's possible to write a small procedural > script which actually does something is indeed a great strength of > PHP. Zeev gave a very nice example of this at the Dutch PHP Conference > last saturday by comparing a Java Hello World to a PHP Hello World. > > As much as the strict-typing and OOP loving programmer inside of me > would want to, I don't want to see PHP drop everything it is now and > become yet another OO language. That just wouldn't make any sense. The > reason for its success is indeed the low barrier and flexibility of > the language. > > It's this same flexibility that I would like to see pleasing > experience (OO) programmers by providing the features of mature OO > languages, while not enforcing them on the beginners. PHP can - and in > my opinion even needs to - be a great language for beginners and > experienced programmers alike. Let's just not forget about that latter > group. > > PHP has it's own identity which it should never lose. However, this > doesn't mean it should stick to the old trusted ways and ignore modern > developments in the programming world. To keep this identity PHP needs > to innovate and learn from recent innovations and programming > insights. It needs to keep evolving so it can keep its lead on the web > and please both beginning and experienced programmers alike. > > > - Jurriën > > > On Jun 12, 2008, at 18:38 , Tech wrote: > >> Hi Jurriën, >> >> The topic you wrote about on your blog is particularly interesting >> to me at this time and you make some very good points. While I'm not >> convinced that PHP 6 specifically is the make-or-break point for PHP >> as a whole, I think that there is a lot of anticipation from the OOP- >> centric PHP developer community on its release and the features >> included within it. I feel there is a major divide in the PHP >> community that you touched on a bit in your blog post I'd like to >> discuss more. >> >> On one side of this divide are new-comers to PHP. In my opinion, >> PHPs success is largely based on its ultra low barrier to entry for >> new programmers. It's free, the documentation is excellent (its easy >> to learn), and there are plenty of people (and hosting companies) >> already using it to get help from. >> >> The other side is made up largely of experienced programmers who >> have enthusiastically embraced PHPs current OOP direction. To them >> its a matter of language survival: in order to be taken seriously in >> the larger programming community PHP needs to mature, and maturity >> is OOP. >> >> The language is moving towards this latter side of the divide. I >> think that this might be to the detriment of the rest of current PHP >> community as a whole. Gone will be the low barrier to entry. A new >> developer will need to understand more advanced programming >> techniques to get started with PHP. I suspect that as this trend >> continues the number of developers adopting PHP will go down. >> >> Underscoring all of this discussion about PHPs significance as a >> programming language is the general view amongst programmers that >> web development in general is ~30 years behind current software >> engineering standards. In terms of reusable code, accepted >> programming methodologies, etc. A great paper written on this is >> "Spaghetti Code for the 21st Century" by Dr. Tommi Mikkonen and Dr. >> Antero Taivalsaari at Sun Labs >> (https://research.sun.com/techrep/2007/abstract-166.html >> ). >> >> I think there is a trend in web development right now to play "catch >> up" with our software engineering brethren. Additionally, a merging >> effect where web apps are increasingly moving to replace desktop >> apps is taking place. I think code quality and a focus on our tools >> is an extremely important issue for web development in the future. >> >> Personally, I feel the benefits of this movement in PHP far outweigh >> the trade-offs mentioned earlier. I want web development to be taken >> seriously as a platform for serious developers. I think PHP could be >> on the leading edge of this movement, even though right now its >> playing catch up. Once it catches up, there will be a massive >> community driving it forward. I'm looking forward to being a part of >> it. >> >> >> Darcy Hastings >> Notion Design >> http://www.notiondesign.ca >> >> >> On 12-Jun-08, at 2:26 AM, Jurriën Stutterheim wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> A few weeks back I posted an entry on my blog regarding my thought >>> on PHP as a programming language. Even though it's not entirely >>> related to Zend Framework, I thought I'd mail this list anyway ;) >>> I'd be interested to know what your thoughts are about the things I >>> mention in my post. >>> >>> The link: http://www.norm2782.com/2008/05/27/php-what-to-say/ >>> >>> PotatoBob even digged it at Digg: >>> http://digg.com/programming/PHP6_and_why_I_think_its_gone_wrong >>> >>> >>> - Jurriën >> >> >> >> >
