At 7/30/03 01:32 PM, you wrote:
Doug,
Excellent post, and I agree with all of your comments concerning the importance of sunlight.
Nathan Hall
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Johnston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [gecko]How do I treat MBD in Leopard Gecko?
> Nathan... > > Everything you've said is true!!! I'm glad you didn't take my tirade personally. > I also have been using calcium glubionate for years, usually with my chameleons, > but occasionally with the geckos. I have always done it under the advice of my > vet, if not as a direct result of a vet visit. I just don't want folks to think > it's a miracle drug (mineral?) that can be utilized without a verified > diagnosis. > > While I agree with you about D3, I would prefer to minimize the artificial D3 > and get the patient under real unfiltered (not through glass or plastic, which > filters the UV out) sunlight if at all possible. Since most geckos are kept in > aquaria, this can be problematic. Tanks turn into "Easy Bake Ovens" in a hurry > when in the sun. To treat a gecko with MBD, if at all possible, I'd set up an > all screen cage they could sun in (giving them a hide so they can get out of the > sun if wanted). She would respond to a treatment regimen of the proper amount of > supplemental calcium and real sunlight better than when using artificial lights > and D3. Actually, if she is getting at least a few hours a week of sunlight, the > artificial D3 should be withheld. Vitamin D3 is a fat soluble vitamin. Excess > amounts in the body are retained in the fatty tissues and organs, and can > eventually cause severe organ problems. With enough real sun, no vitamin D3 is > needed as the body produces what it needs. Any extra taken with diet is excess > and can cause problems. As you mentioned, we really don't know how much is > enough, but artificial vitamins given as supplements are our attempt to make up > for what they don't get by varied diet in the wild and what the body produces > under real sunlight. From what I've seen from personal experience, geckos (the > species I keep at least) need more D3 when kept under artificial lights than my > chameleons, which seem especially susceptible to over supplementation. Real sun > is better than anything we can contrive, though. In addition, the female should > be separated from the male until she recovers, and nutrition should be a > priority. > > Nathan Hall wrote: > > > Doug, > > > > It is hard to say if there is a "correct" dosage for calcium glubionate when > > treating MBD. Both Dr. Jim Jarchow (Tucson, AZ) and Dr. Mark Peckham > > (Houston, TX) have always used drop dosing on an OTC supplement like calcium > > glubionate. The severity of the condition must be taken into consideration > > before trying to establish a proper dosage (differs case to case). Wouldn't > > it be lovely if we all knew how much vitamins and minerals to give our > > geckos? Thankfully, geckos seem to be rather forgiving when it comes to our > > arbitrary use of supplements. > > > > I've been using calcium glubionate for about 12 years, and my geckos have > > never had any problems with overdoses. D3 is as important to the successful > > treatment of MBD as calcium glubionate since it increases the production of > > calcium-binding proteins. Calcium absorption is inversely related to > > calcium intake. The body adjusts the percentage it absorbs based on the > > amount in the diet. I have only seen a few true cases of hypercalcemia, but > > I've seen hundreds of hypocalcemic geckos. Excess calcium supplementation > > does not usually cause hypercalcemia. It will, however, interfere with > > mineral absorption. So, I think calcium glubionate can be considered > > relatively safe. > > > > Nathan Hall > > www.geckosunlimited.com > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > 713-775-5545 > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doug Johnston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:02 AM > > Subject: Re: [gecko]How do I treat MBD in Leopard Gecko? > > > > > Nathan... > > > > > > I have no problems with that or what you said before, and I agree (and > > said so > > > below) that calcium glubionate would likely be part of MBD treatment. I > > just > > > wanted to point out that since he had not confirmed the problem is MBD he > > was > > > shooting in the dark. BTW... what is the correct dosage for calcium > > glubionate > > > in an MBD scenario? While an experienced herper might have in his or her > > > collection the books that might answer that collection, any vet, experienc > > ed > > > with herps or not, will definitely have access to them. Since overdose of > > > calcium can cause almost identical symptoms to MBD, wouldn't it be in the > > best > > > interest of the gecko to get a professional evaluation? Yes, I know vets > > make > > > mistakes. We all do. But at least they have the training. Don't we all > > recommend > > > to beginners that they research and find an experienced vet before they > > ever buy > > > a herp? And what if this isn't MBD? In fairness, based on his responses > > > indicating she has been fairly heavily bred, it is very possibly > > hypocalcemia. > > > But he still doesn't know the dosage! > > > > > > Sorry for coming on so strong folks. I apologize particularly to Nathan as > > he > > > received the brunt of this tirade. I just get a little sick of people > > looking > > > for the "internet miracle cure" when we all know that for every correct > > answer > > > to questions asked on the internet you get several incorrect and > > potentially > > > harmful ones. At least on this list that is more unlikely, but still... > > Remember > > > that there is an implied contract when you take on the care of another > > living > > > being that requires you to give it the best care you can. If you can't > > afford a > > > vet, get a pet rock!!! > > > > > > Nathan Hall wrote: > > > > > > > Doug, > > > > > > > > If it is in fact MBD, a vet will most likely prescribe calcium > > glubionate. > > > > I agree, the gecko should be examined by a vet before supplementation, > > but > > > > many "reptile" vets have less experience than many gecko breeders since > > > > breeders work with a larger number of geckos on a regular basis and see > > > > plenty of ailments. I have had to correct mistakes made by vets on > > numerous > > > > occasions. There are some diseases that present symptoms similar to MBD > > and > > > > my post was a little hasty, but I wanted to let the person know that > > calcium > > > > glubionate might help. > > > > > > > > Nathan > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Doug Johnston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 11:59 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [gecko]How do I treat MBD in Leopard Gecko? > > > > > > > > > Steven... > > > > > > > > > > While calcium glubionate will likely be part of treatment for MBD, > > aren't > > > > you > > > > > going off a little early here? I would suggest you get her evaluated > > by a > > > > vet > > > > > before starting any home treatment. There are several problems that > > share > > > > common > > > > > symptoms with MBD. Treating with calcium could make some of them > > worse. > > > > Even if > > > > > it is MBD, overdosing with calcium could cause other problems. It's > > always > > > > wiser > > > > > to get a professional's opinion. You didn't mention anything about her > > > > > reproductive history... breeding can make a slight calcium shortage > > much > > > > worse > > > > > as they take the calcium from the tissues, etc. to form the eggs. And, > > > > before > > > > > you ask... I am not a vet. Good luck with her. > > > > > > > > > > Nathan Hall wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Have you tried calcium glubionate? It is a concentrated liquid > > calcium > > > > that > > > > > > works in conjunction with D3, and I've found it to be rather safe > > since > > > > > > dosing amounts are arbitrary. I would give the gecko a couple of > > drops > > > > a > > > > > > day for a few days to see if the supplementation is beneficial. > > > > > > > > > > > > You should be able to find it at your local pharmacy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nathan Hall > > > > > > www.geckosunlimited.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Steven Groginsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:54 PM > > > > > > Subject: [gecko]How do I treat MBD in Leopard Gecko? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi. I suspect that a female has metabolic bone disease. She has > > > > > > developed > > > > > > > a slight "overbite" that she never had before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I could put her on a diet of crickets dusted with calcium/D3, but > > I'd > > > > > > > really like some other suggestions if anyone has any. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Global Gecko Association > > > > > > > http://www.gekkota.com > > > > > > > Classifieds > > > > > > > http://www.gekkota.com/cgi-gekkota/classifieds.cgi > > > > > > > gecko mailing list > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > http://lists.gekkota.com/mailman/listinfo/gecko > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Global Gecko Association > > > > > > http://www.gekkota.com > > > > > > Classifieds > > > > > > http://www.gekkota.com/cgi-gekkota/classifieds.cgi > > > > > > gecko mailing list > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > http://lists.gekkota.com/mailman/listinfo/gecko > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Doug Johnston > > > > > http://pages.sbcglobal.net/scubadug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Global Gecko Association > > > > > http://www.gekkota.com > > > > > Classifieds > > > > > http://www.gekkota.com/cgi-gekkota/classifieds.cgi > > > > > gecko mailing list > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > http://lists.gekkota.com/mailman/listinfo/gecko > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Global Gecko Association > > > > http://www.gekkota.com > > > > Classifieds > > > > http://www.gekkota.com/cgi-gekkota/classifieds.cgi > > > > gecko mailing list > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://lists.gekkota.com/mailman/listinfo/gecko > > > > > > -- > > > Doug Johnston > > > http://pages.sbcglobal.net/scubadug/ > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Global Gecko Association > > > http://www.gekkota.com > > > Classifieds > > > http://www.gekkota.com/cgi-gekkota/classifieds.cgi > > > gecko mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://lists.gekkota.com/mailman/listinfo/gecko > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Global Gecko Association > > http://www.gekkota.com > > Classifieds > > http://www.gekkota.com/cgi-gekkota/classifieds.cgi > > gecko mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://lists.gekkota.com/mailman/listinfo/gecko > > -- > Doug Johnston > http://pages.sbcglobal.net/scubadug > > > _______________________________________________ > Global Gecko Association > http://www.gekkota.com > Classifieds > http://www.gekkota.com/cgi-gekkota/classifieds.cgi > gecko mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.gekkota.com/mailman/listinfo/gecko
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