[gecko]Re: cage cleaning solutions

[Chad Mayer]

Excellent point about nasties developing in even the most scrupulously clean herp environments.  I recently alienated about half of one of the kingsnake forums by commenting on this exact topic....and how inappropriate it was to publicly drag a breeders name thru the mud based on one experience.  For those newbies out there, keep in mind that EVERY herp breeder does develop problems from time to time (parasites, bacteria, shipping problems, failure to adapt to a new environment, etc.).  One bad experience shouldnt make a bad reputation.  Ive been lucky in this respect so far, but it does bear repeating from time to time that we all run into problems, and can only realistically expect to minimize their likelihood thru good husbandry practices. 

Gracias,

Chad

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Re: cage cleaning solutions (Julie Bergman)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:11:52 -0800
From: Julie Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: Gecko Ranch
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [gecko]Re: cage cleaning solutions
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Hey Chad,

Chad Mayer wrote:

> Now THIS IS an interesting topic.

And a very important one. Could mean the difference in your geckos' health.

> And one that can probably be resolved with some good data.

Absolutely!

> Looking forward to seeing everyones sides on this one. From
> personal experience, bleach is the most wide spectrum bacteriacidal
> agent, but peroxide mixed with vinegar does have uses too. I wonder
> if were all talking about killing the same nasties here?

I think many folks are not aware that nasties can appear in healthy
collections that have good husbandry. They could be living in the gex
already and not be a problem, come from food sources, or from cross
contamination of some kind, like touching one terrarium and then
another. There are many nasties to mention and countless ways to get them.

> Is peroxide more specific to certain pathogens? It would seem that
> they examined the three most common ones, but Julies point is well
> taken: theres all sorts of nasty stuff that develops around herps if
> youre not careful.

And even if you are careful. Rick Gale just posted about parasites in
crickets.

> If I recall correctly, peroxide and vinegar has a hard time
> penetrating spores and dormant bacteria....Hmm, I sense an experiment
> coming on...In this corner, the reigning champion, 10% bleach! In
> this corner, the challenger, a tag team of peroxide and Vinegar!
> Following that, the undercard of Quatricide versus Nolvasan! Lets get
> ready to RUUUUMMMMBBBBLLLLLEEEEE!
> Sorry, feeling silly today.
> Chad

Very good Chad, much appreciated! ;)

Julie B.

>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Cage Cleaning Solutions and Plant Fertilizer (Julie Bergman)
>
> -- __--__--
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:09:21 -0800
> From: Julie Bergman
> Organization: Gecko Ranch
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [gecko]Cage Cleaning Solutions and Plant Fertilizer
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> This is a mu lti-part message in MIME format.
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>
> Hi Sam,
>
> I'd like to see the original study. This review of the original
> research
> is written for cleaning kitchens, and kitchens are not the same as
> herp
> environments. Another caveat I have in applying this to herps
> would be
> that these three bacteria are only a small blip of the large
> assortment
> of nasties that can pop up in the herp terrarium. I do understand the
> concern about bleach and toxicity. The room I use for
> sterilization has
> an overhead fan which is on the entire time bleach is present. I then
> make sure terrariums are fully rinsed and aired out (usually
> overnight)
&g t; and do not have any bleach scent at all when I reuse the
> terrarium. It
> has been suggested in this forum to use hydrogen peroxide to
> follow up
> cleaning with 10% bleach solution to reduce any residue.
>
> For everyday spot cleaning I use Quatricide, an effective, non-harsh
> cleaner. I have used it with the 80+ species of geckos and lizards I
> have kept, have not lost one following introduction to a
> Quatricide-treated cage. I have not lost any to bleach-treated
> terraria
> either. The nice thing about Quatricide is that you just spray,
> wipe it
> out and you are done. I have even used it with herps in the terrarium
> when they were well out of the way. I have been following the 10%
> bleach
> regimen for 23 years with my herps since it was recommend by
> non-domestic veterinarians at UC Davis where I went to college. I
> keep
> checking in periodically wit h the vets at UCD and also my neighbor
> who
> is the head of the UC Davis Poison Control Center (she has a
> pharmacology Phd and treats all kinds of nasties affecting people) to
> see if there is anything more effective and available for the average
> person to use. They keep telling me 10% bleach is the way to go. I
> will
> present some research here soon so you can all make up your own minds
> about this.
>
> Julie Bergman
> GGA lifetime member
> www.geckoranch.com
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Julie/Scubadug,
> > Here is a site that'll explain how and why hydrogen peroxide is
> better
> > than chlorine bleach.
> > http://my.execpc.com/~mjstouff/articles/vinegar.html
> >
> >
> > The tests were done at Virginia Polytechnic Institue and State
> > University. The tests found that when hydrogen peroxide and vinegar
> > were used as disinfectants that it killed almost all Salmonella,
> > Shigella / E. Coli bacteria.
> >
> > Here is a direct quote from the site:
> > "...making this spray combination (Hydrogen peroxide and
> vinegar)more
> > effective at killing these potentially lethal bacteria than
> chlorine
> > bleach or any comm ercially available kitchen cleaner."
> >
> > Also the FDA warns us about the cancerous affects of using chlorine
> > bleach.
> >
> > Now in all honesty their is research proving hydrogen peroxide
> being
> > better over chlorine bleach and vice versa. You'll find many
> different
> > views and results on these two types of disinfectants.
> >
> > Regards,
> > -Sam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage Cleaning Solutions and Pl ant Fertilizer
> >> Date: 1/27/2004 10:20:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Sent from the Internet
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Sam,
> >>
> >> I have to completely agree with what Doug said here. I am sorry
> you
> >> were offended. P lease don't mistake our strong advocacy for
> proper
> >> sterilization procedures personally. There are lots of newbies on
> >> this list and it is important to give them the best information
> >> available. After all, this is what the GGA is all about, education
> >> for the betterment of gex.
> >>
> >> After keeping herps for some time, you will find their health
> is not
> >> a static situation as Doug astutely pointed out. It is a constant
> >> battle to keep gex environments free of threating organisms.
> You can
> >> really never relax about this, and you can't send the second or
> third
> >> teams out to win the superbowl. ;)
> >>
> >> Julie Bergman
> >> GGA lifetime member
> >> www.geckoranch.com
> >>
> >> Doug Johnston wrote:
> >>
> >>> Sam...
> >>>
> >>> First of all, please do not hold back you r input. That is
> what this
> >>> list is all about. Dialog always has two sides to it. My response
> >>> was not intended to be aggressive, though I figured you'd take it
> >>> that way. People who get corrected usually do! You are certainly
> >>> welcome to your opinions, but I think if you did some very
> minimal
> >>> web searc hing (what I did), you'd find what Julie and I said is
> >>> absolutely correct. We responded like we did because we are
> always
> >>> advocates for the animals above all else. Keep in mind that even
> >>> healthy animals will shed parasites and their eggs. If you do not
> >>> disinfect the cage adequately, they can reinfect the animals (at
> >>> least those with a direct life cycle). Healthy animals can
> usually
> >>> handle this, but introduce a stressor and the parasites can then
> >>> bloom and you have a problem.
> >>>
> >>> I guess I should stop now... you probably won't listen anyway!
> >>>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Julie/Scubadug,
> >>>>
> >>>> I've heard of quatricide, and it is readily available.
> >>>> I guess when dealing with really sick herps then you guys may be
> >>>> right that something stronger would be needed. However I have a
> >>>> full collection of healthies on my hand, and the hydrogen
> peroxide
> >>>> is working great with me. The reason i mentioned hydrogen
> peroxide
> >>>> to the person that was inquiring about methods of cleaning tanks
> >>>> was because for regular cleaning for healthy leos this would be
> >>>> fine. If the person however asked for a disinfectant because
> she's
> >>>> got a really sick reptile then i would've left it up to
> others to
> >>>> recommend more powerful disinfectants that have worked for
> them. We
> >>>> all know that different parasites, bacteria etc. require
> different
> >>>> disinfectants, simply having one will not necessarily kill off
> >>>> everything.
> >>>> No need to get nasty here, and hound people for their
> methods, or
> >>>> choices they prefer to disinfect their enclosures, what works
> for
> >>>> some may not work for others, simple as that.
> >>>> Scubadug, I think you should relax, and try to get your point
> >>>> across in a much more calm fashion.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wow, didn't know this place could get so aggressive........I'm
> >>>> gonna think twice before I put my two cents in next time.
> >>>> Happy herping all
> >>>> -Sam
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage Cleaning Solutions and Plant Fertilizer
> >>>>> Date: 1/26/2004 10:39:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> Sent from the Internet
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Sam,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Julie,
> >>>>> I guess every vets got their own opinion, as two of my very
> well
> >>>>> known vets here in Ontario have recommended hydrogen
> peroxide over
> >>>>> the 1 0% bleach solution. They're who introduced me to it in
> the
> >>>>> first place.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Man! That is not too good to hear as there is plenty of
> research to
> >>>> back up that hydrogen peroxide is a poor disinfectant. The vet I
> >>>> was consulting, an exceptional non-domestic vet, also mentioned
> >>>> that hydrogen peroxide was NOT federally approved as a
> >>>> disenfectant. That may not mean much in Canada. ;)
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I myself really enjoy using it as a disinfectant, it's quick
> and
> >>>>> easy and gets the job done. No heavy lifting of the tanks to
> the
> >>>>> bath involved. :)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> There are other alternatives to 10% bleach solution. Quarternary
> >>>& gt; ammonia, or Quatricide (Quat, brand names vary), is a
> great spot
> >>>> cleaner and sh own to be more effective than hydrogen peroxide.
> >>>> Quatricide is readily available, cost effective (depends on
> where
> >>>> you buy it, what brand name) easy to use and will kill more bugs
> >>>> than hydrogen peroxide. I would not want anyone here to use
> >>>> hydrogen peroxide when there are so many other better choices. I
> >>>> have only mentioned one. I know Bean Farm sells Novalsan for
> >>>> example. Maybe Pro Exotics has some research to back up their
> new
> >>>> product someone mentioned here. Knowing Chad Brown, owner of Pro
> >>>> Exotics, he would certainly not offer anything that was not
> shown
> >>>> to be effective and safe within herper standards.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To each their own i guess.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> You mentioned, "gets the job done." If the job is not done as
> well
> >>>> as other products available, what does that mean to your geckos?
> >>>> Germs, viruses, parasites, bacteria are stuff we cannot see
> and we
> >>>> must rely on competent research to help us have confidence
> that the
> >>>> job is getting done for the health of our gex.
> >>>> Julie Bergman
> >>>> GGA lifetime member
> >>>> www.geckoranch.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for the info however, always welcomed :)
> >>>>> -Sam
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage Cleanin g Solutions and Plant Fertilizer
> >>>>> Date: 1/22/2004 11:58:37 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> Sent from the Internet
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sam, I just checked with a non-domestic vet I know about
> this and
> >>>>> she said hydrogen peroxide was a "poor microbiocide overall
> >>>>> compared to most others (chlorine, quaternary ammonias and
> other
> >>>>> commonly used disinfectants)." Quatricide is a quaternary
> >>>>> ammonia. She did say, however, that folks keeping aquatic
> >>>>> terraria are using it to "reduce potential toxicity issues with
> >>>>> other disinfectants (for example in amphibian terraria)." She
> >>>>> thought the best thing out there was the 10% bleach
> solution. Just
> >>>>> an FYI!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Julie B.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>>>> Many people use 5 or 10% bleach/water solution to clean out
> their
> >>>>> tanks, and love it.
> >>>>> For the past 7 months now, I however have been using hydrogen
> >>>>> peroxide, and am so happy that I found out about it! It
> saves me
> >>>>> loads of time, and it gets the job done with no problems! Seems
> >>>>> that this disinfectant is catching a lot of herpers attention
> >>>>> recently :)
> >>>>> All I do is spra y, wait 30 seconds, and wipe dry!
> >>>>> -Sam
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage Cleaning Solutions and Plant Fertilizer
> >>>>> Date: 1/2/2004 11:32:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> Sent from the Internet
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That depends, are you doing a clean with the gex inside or a
> >>>>> sterilization? For a quick spot clean with the gex inside (gex
> >>>>> you cannot easily remove like Phelsuma) or a quick overall
> clean I
> >>>>> use Quatricide (generic equivalent from Smart a nd Final). It is
> >>>>> about $6 for a gallon of concentrate. This is the same stuff
> sold
> >>>>> by the brand name reptile folks, just read the label, it is
> even
> >>>>> the same concentrate.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For that complete sterilization nothing beats a 10% bleach to
> >>>>> water solution. After that is all rinsed out then I got for the
> >>>>> vinegar to get rid of the hard water spots.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Julie B.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mark &Robyn Rivera wrote:
> >>>>> Was wondering what cage cleaning solution people are using out
> >>>>> there? Also does anyone use Miracle Grow fertilizer on their
> tank
> >>>>> plants and would that have any vapor that might be harmful
> to geckos?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Doug Johnston
> > http://pages.sbcglobal.net/scubadug
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Sam,
>
>
>
> I'd like to see the original study. This review of the original
> research is written for cleaning kitchens, and kitchens are not the
> same as herp environments. Another caveat I have in applying this to
> herps would be that these three bacteria are only a small blip of the
> large assortment of nasties that can pop up in the herp terrarium.
> I do
> understand the concern about bleach and t oxicity. The room I use for
> sterilization has an overhead fan which is on the entire time
> bleach is
> present. I then make sure terrariums are fully rinsed and aired out
> (usually overnight) and do not have any bleach scent at all when I
> reuse the terrarium. It has been suggested in this forum to use
> hydrogen peroxide to follow up cleaning with 10% bleach solution to
> reduce any residue.
>
>
>
> For everyday spot cleaning I use Quatricide, an effective, non-harsh
> cleaner. I have used it with the 80+ species of geckos and lizards I
> have kept, have not lost one following introduction to a
> Quatricide-treated cage . I have not lost any to bleach-treated
> terraria
> either. The nice thing about Quatricide is that you just spray,
> wipe it
> out and you are done. I have even used it with herps in the terrarium
> when they were well out of the way. I have been following the 10%
> bleach regimen for 23 years with my herps since it was recommend by
> non-domesti c veterinarians at UC Davis where I went to college. I
> keep
> checking in periodically with the vets at UCD and also my neighbor who
> is the head of the UC Davis Poison Control Center (she has a
> pharmacology Phd and treats all kinds of nasties affecting people) to
> see if there is anything more effective and available for the average
> person to use. They keep telling me 10% bleach is the way to go. I
> will
> present some research here soon so you can all make up your own minds
> about this.
>
>
>
> Julie Bergman
>
> GGA lifetime member
>
> www.geckoranch.com
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>
>> face="arial,helvetica">
>> face="Arial" lang="0">Julie/Scubadug,
>>
>> Here is a site that'll explain how and why hydrogen peroxide is
>> better
>> than chlorine bleach.
>>
>> http://my.execpc.com/~mjstouff/articles/vinegar.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The tests were done at Virginia Polytechnic Institue and State
>> University. The tests found that when hydrogen peroxide and vinegar
>> were used as disinfectants that it killed almost all Salmonella,
>> Shigella / E. Coli bacteria.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is a direct quote from the site:
>>
>>
>> style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="2" ptsize="10"

=== message truncated ===

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