Missed your new post here Elizabeth.... I did go to Smart and Final
this week while I was in Southern California. The quatricide product
they sell is called "Lemon Clean" and is $7.59 a gallon. 2 oz make one
gallon cleaner. Great deal!
Julie B.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Subj: [gecko]Re: cage
cleaning solutions
Date: 1/29/04 12:30:20 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chad Mayer)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Now THIS IS an interesting topic. And one that can probably be
resolved with some good data. Looking forward to seeing everyones
sides on this one. From personal experience, bleach is the most wide
spectrum bacteriacidal agent, but peroxide mixed with vinegar does have
uses too. I wonder if were all talking about killing the same nasties
here? Is peroxide more specific to certain pathogens? It would seem
that they examined the three most common ones, but Julies point is well
taken: theres all sorts of nasty stuff that develops around herps if
youre not careful. If I recall correctly, peroxide and vinegar has a
hard time penetrating spores and dormant bacteria....Hmm, I sense an
experiment coming on...In this corner, the reigning champion, 10%
bleach! In this corner, the challenger, a tag team of peroxide and
Vinegar! Following that, the undercard of Quatricide versus Nolvasan!
Lets get ready to RUUUUMMMMBBBBLLLLLEEEEE!
Sorry, feeling silly today.
Chad
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Cage Cleaning Solutions and Plant Fertilizer (Julie Bergman)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:09:21 -0800
From: Julie Bergman
Organization: Gecko Ranch
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [gecko]Cage Cleaning Solutions and Plant Fertilizer
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hi Sam,
I'd like to see the original study. This review of the original
research
is written for cleaning kitchens, and kitchens are not the same as herp
environments. Another caveat I have in applying this to herps would be
that these three bacteria are only a small blip of the large assortment
of nasties that can pop up in the herp terrarium. I do understand the
concern about bleach and toxicity. The room I use for sterilization has
an overhead fan which is on the entire time bleach is present. I then
make sure terrariums are fully rinsed and aired out (usually overnight)
and do not have any bleach scent at all when I reuse the terrarium. It
has been suggested in this forum to use hydrogen peroxide to follow up
cleaning with 10% bleach solution to reduce any residue.
For everyday spot cleaning I use Quatricide, an effective, non-harsh
cleaner. I have used it with the 80+ species of geckos and lizards I
have kept, have not lost one following introduction to a
Quatricide-treated cage. I have not lost any to bleach-treated terraria
either. The nice thing about Quatricide is that you just spray, wipe it
out and you are done. I have even used it with herps in the terrarium
when they were well out of the way. I have been following the 10%
bleach
regimen for 23 years with my herps since it was recommend by
non-domestic veterinarians at UC Davis where I went to college. I keep
checking in periodically with the vets at UCD and also my neighbor who
is the head of the UC Davis Poison Control Center (she has a
pharmacology Phd and treats all kinds of nasties affecting people) to
see if there is anything more effective and available for the average
person to use. They keep telling me 10% bleach is the way to go. I will
present some research here soon so you can all make up your own minds
about this.
Julie Bergman
GGA lifetime member
www.geckoranch.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Julie/Scubadug,
> Here is a site that'll explain how and why hydrogen peroxide is
better
> than chlorine bleach.
> http://my.execpc.com/~mjstouff/articles/vinegar.html
>
>
> The tests were done at Virginia Polytechnic Institue and State
> University. The tests found that when hydrogen peroxide and
vinegar
> were used as disinfectants that it killed almost all Salmonella,
> Shigella / E. Coli bacteria.
>
> Here is a direct quote from the site:
> "...making this spray combination (Hydrogen peroxide and
vinegar)more
> effective at killing these potentially lethal bacteria than
chlorine
> bleach or any comm ercially available kitchen cleaner."
>
> Also the FDA warns us about the cancerous affects of using
chlorine
> bleach.
>
> Now in all honesty their is research proving hydrogen peroxide
being
> better over chlorine bleach and vice versa. You'll find many
different
> views and results on these two types of disinfectants.
>
> Regards,
> -Sam
>
>
>
>
>> Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage Cleaning Solutions and Plant Fertilizer
>> Date: 1/27/2004 10:20:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> Hi Sam,
>>
>> I have to completely agree with what Doug said here. I am
sorry you
>> were offended. P lease don't mistake our strong advocacy for
proper
>> sterilization procedures personally. There are lots of newbies
on
>> this list and it is important to give them the best
information
>> available. After all, this is what the GGA is all about,
education
>> for the betterment of gex.
>>
>> After keeping herps for some time, you will find their health
is not
>> a static situation as Doug astutely pointed out. It is a
constant
>> battle to keep gex environments free of threating organisms.
You can
>> really never relax about this, and you can't send the second
or third
>> teams out to win the superbowl. ;)
>>
>> Julie Bergman
>> GGA lifetime member
>> www.geckoranch.com
>>
>> Doug Johnston wrote:
>>
>>> Sam...
>>>
>>> First of all, please do not hold back you r input. That is
what this
>>> list is all about. Dialog always has two sides to it. My
response
>>> was not intended to be aggressive, though I figured you'd
take it
>>> that way. People who get corrected usually do! You are
certainly
>>> welcome to your opinions, but I think if you did some very
minimal
>>> web searching (what I did), you'd find what Julie and I
said is
>>> absolutely correct. We responded like we did because we
are always
>>> advocates for the animals above all else. Keep in mind
that even
>>> healthy animals will shed parasites and their eggs. If you
do not
>>> disinfect the cage adequately, they can reinfect the
animals (at
>>> least those with a direct life cycle). Healthy animals can
usually
>>> handle this, but introduce a stressor and the parasites
can then
>>> bloom and you have a problem.
>>>
>>> I guess I should stop now... you probably won't listen
anyway!
>>>
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Julie/Scubadug,
>>>>
>>>> I've heard of quatricide, and it is readily available.
>>>> I guess when dealing with really sick herps then you
guys may be
>>>> right that something stronger would be needed. However
I have a
>>>> full collection of healthies on my hand, and the
hydrogen peroxide
>>>> is working great with me. The reason i mentioned
hydrogen peroxide
>>>> to the person that was inquiring about methods of
cleaning tanks
>>>> was because for regular cleaning for healthy leos this
would be
>>>> fine. If the person however asked for a disinfectant
because she's
>>>> got a really sick reptile then i would've left it up
to others to
>>>> recommend more powerful disinfectants that have worked
for them. We
>>>> all know that different parasites, bacteria etc.
require different
>>>> disinfectants, simply having one will not necessarily
kill off
>>>> everything.
>>>> No need to get nasty here, and hound people for their
methods, or
>>>> choices they prefer to disinfect their enclosures,
what works for
>>>> some may not work for others, simple as that.
>>>> Scubadug, I think you should relax, and try to get
your point
>>>> across in a much more calm fashion.
>>>>
>>>> Wow, didn't know this place could get so
aggressive........I'm
>>>> gonna think twice before I put my two cents in next
time.
>>>> Happy herping all
>>>> -Sam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage Cleaning Solutions and Plant
Fertilizer
>>>>> Date: 1/26/2004 10:39:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Sam,
>>>>>
>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>>> Hi Julie,
>>>>> I guess every vets got their own opinion, as two
of my very well
>>>>> known vets here in Ontario have recommended
hydrogen peroxide over
>>>>> the 1 0% bleach solution. They're who introduced
me to it in the
>>>>> first place.
>>>>
>>>> Man! That is not too good to hear as there is plenty
of research to
>>>> back up that hydrogen peroxide is a poor disinfectant.
The vet I
>>>> was consulting, an exceptional non-domestic vet, also
mentioned
>>>> that hydrogen peroxide was NOT federally approved as a
>>>> disenfectant. That may not mean much in Canada. ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> I myself really enjoy using it as a disinfectant,
it's quick and
>>>>> easy and gets the job done. No heavy lifting of
the tanks to the
>>>>> bath involved. :)
>>>>
>>>> There are other alternatives to 10% bleach solution.
Quarternary
>>>& gt; ammonia, or Quatricide (Quat, brand names vary),
is a great spot
>>>> cleaner and shown to be more effective than hydrogen
peroxide.
>>>> Quatricide is readily available, cost effective
(depends on where
>>>> you buy it, what brand name) easy to use and will kill
more bugs
>>>> than hydrogen peroxide. I would not want anyone here
to use
>>>> hydrogen peroxide when there are so many other better
choices. I
>>>> have only mentioned one. I know Bean Farm sells
Novalsan for
>>>> example. Maybe Pro Exotics has some research to back
up their new
>>>> product someone mentioned here. Knowing Chad Brown,
owner of Pro
>>>> Exotics, he would certainly not offer anything that
was not shown
>>>> to be effective and safe within herper standards.
>>>>>
>>>>> To each their own i guess.
>>>>
>>>> You mentioned, "gets the job done." If the job is not
done as well
>>>> as other products available, what does that mean to
your geckos?
>>>> Germs, viruses, parasites, bacteria are stuff we
cannot see and we
>>>> must rely on competent research to help us have
confidence that the
>>>> job is getting done for the health of our gex.
>>>> Julie Bergman
>>>> GGA lifetime member
>>>> www.geckoranch.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the info however, always welcomed :)
>>>>> -Sam
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage Cleaning Solutions and Plant
Fertilizer
>>>>> Date: 1/22/2004 11:58:37 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> Sent from the Internet
>>>>> Sam, I just checked with a non-domestic vet I know
about this and
>>>>> she said hydrogen peroxide was a "poor
microbiocide overall
>>>>> compared to most others (chlorine, quaternary
ammonias and other
>>>>> commonly used disinfectants)." Quatricide is a
quaternary
>>>>> ammonia. She did say, however, that folks keeping
aquatic
>>>>> terraria are using it to "reduce potential
toxicity issues with
>>>>> other disinfectants (for example in amphibian
terraria)." She
>>>>> thought the best thing out there was the 10%
bleach solution. Just
>>>>> an FYI!
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie B.
>>>>>
>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>>> Many people use 5 or 10% bleach/water solution to
clean out their
>>>>> tanks, and love it.
>>>>> For the past 7 months now, I however have been
using hydrogen
>>>>> peroxide, and am so happy that I found out about
it! It saves me
>>>>> loads of time, and it gets the job done with no
problems! Seems
>>>>> that this disinfectant is catching a lot of
herpers attention
>>>>> recently :)
>>>>> All I do is spray, wait 30 seconds, and wipe dry!
>>>>> -Sam
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage Cleaning Solutions and Plant
Fertilizer
>>>>> Date: 1/2/2004 11:32:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> That depends, are you doing a clean with the gex
inside or a
>>>>> sterilization? For a quick spot clean with the gex
inside (gex
>>>>> you cannot easily remove like Phelsuma) or a quick
overall clean I
>>>>> use Quatricide (generic equivalent from Smart and
Final). It is
>>>>> about $6 for a gallon of concentrate. This is the
same stuff sold
>>>>> by the brand name reptile folks, just read the
label, it is even
>>>>> the same concentrate.
>>>>>
>>>>> For that complete sterilization nothing beats a
10% bleach to
>>>>> water solution. After that is all rinsed out then
I got for the
>>>>> vinegar to get rid of the hard water spots.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie B.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark &Robyn Rivera wrote:
>>>>> Was wondering what cage cleaning solution people
are using out
>>>>> there? Also does anyone use Miracle Grow
fertilizer on their tank
>>>>> plants and would that have any vapor that might be
harmful to geckos?
> --
> Doug Johnston
> http://pages.sbcglobal.net/scubadug
Hi Sam,
I'd like to see the original study. This review of the original
research is written for cleaning kitchens, and kitchens are not the
same as herp environments. Another caveat I have in applying this to
herps would be that these three bacteria are only a small blip of the
large assortment of nasties that can pop up in the herp terrarium. I do
understand the concern about bleach and t oxicity. The room I use for
sterilization has an overhead fan which is on the entire time bleach is
present. I then make sure terrariums are fully rinsed and aired out
(usually overnight) and do not have any bleach scent at all when I
reuse the terrarium. It has been suggested in this forum to use
hydrogen peroxide to follow up cleaning with 10% bleach solution to
reduce any residue.
For everyday spot cleaning I use Quatricide, an effective, non-harsh
cleaner. I have used it with the 80+ species of geckos and lizards I
have kept, have not lost one following introduction to a
Quatricide-treated cage. I have not lost any to bleach-treated terraria
either. The nice thing about Quatricide is that you just spray, wipe it
out and you are done. I have even used it with herps in the terrarium
when they were well out of the way. I have been following the 10%
bleach regimen for 23 years with my herps since it was recommend by
non-domesti c veterinarians at UC Davis where I went to college. I keep
checking in periodically with the vets at UCD and also my neighbor who
is the head of the UC Davis Poison Control Center (she has a
pharmacology Phd and treats all kinds of nasties affecting people) to
see if there is anything more effective and available for the average
person to use. They keep telling me 10% bleach is the way to go. I will
present some research here soon so you can all make up your own minds
about this.
Julie Bergman
GGA lifetime member
http://www.geckoranch.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Julie/Scubadug,
Here is a site that'll explain how and why hydrogen peroxide is better
than chlorine bleach.
http://my.execpc.com/~mjstouff/articles/vinegar.html
The tests were done at Virginia Polytechnic Institue and State
University. The tests found that when hydrogen peroxide and vinegar
were used as disinfectants that it killed almost all Salmonella,
Shigella / E. Coli bacteria.
Here is a direct quote from the site:
style="background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="2" ptsize="10"
family="SERIF" face="Times New Roman" lang="0">"...making this spray
combination (Hydrogen peroxide and vinegar)more effective at killing
these potentially lethal bacteria than chlorine bleach or any
commercially available kitchen cleaner."
Now in all honesty their is research proving hydrogen peroxide being
better over chlorine bleach and vice versa. You'll find many different
views and results on these two types of disinfectants.
Regards,
-Sam
Subj: Re: [gecko]Cage
Cleaning Solutions and Plant Fertilizer
Date: 1/27/2004 10:20:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent from the Internet
Hi Sam,
I have to completely agree with what Doug said here. I am sorry you
were offended. Please don't mistake our strong advocacy for proper
sterilization procedures personally. There are lots of newbies on this
list and it is important to give them the best information available.
After all, this is what the GGA is all about, education for the
betterment of gex.
After keeping herps for some time, you will find their health is not a
static situation as Doug astutely pointed out. It is a constant battle
to keep gex environments free of threating organisms. You can really
never relax about this, and you can't send the second or third teams
out to win the superbowl. ;)
Julie Bergman
GGA lifetime member
http://www.geckoranch.com/
Doug Johnston wrote:
Sam...
First of all, please do not hold back your input. That is what this
list is all about. Dialog always has two sides to it. My response was
not intended to be aggressive, though I figured you'd take it that way.
People who get corrected usually do! You are certainly welcome to your
opinions, but I think if you did some very minimal web searching (what
I did), you'd find what Julie and I said is absolutely correct. We
responded like we did because we are always advocates for the animals
above all else. Keep in mind that even healthy animals will shed
=== message truncated
|
