Hi, I understand why the cysts should be hard to kill. The oocysts are meant to withstand environmental extremes. I have taken it upon myself to use very hot water with excessive rinsing (and of course bleach)to clean the containers as much as possible. I'm a little worried, not particularly about the quarantine but for re-treating after the geckos are moved to their "natural" home. I mean, although the geckos could potentially breed, breeding them is not my intention. I just want them to look at in a natural home. In fact, I never realised how absolutely beautiful they really are until I held them close up to administer the Novotrimel.
Anyway, I am supposed to give the treatment starting as a double dose the first day (yesterday) and a regular dose each day after that for an additional 9 days - to each gecko. After that I'm supposed to wait 3 weeks then bring in a stool sample for a fecal test. I assume the wait period is 2 weeks plus an extra week to collect enough stool for a good test. Something that concerns me is that the vet is an exotics vet who deals mostly with birds. I think that's his specialty. When I did some research on Novotrimel it turned out that this is a drug used for birds (like non-consumable poultry) or to treat bladder infections in people. I assume the vet knows what he's doing but it does make me a little uncomfortable. He has seen my other geckos before and I know birds are kind of like "feathery reptiles". I don't understand how I can ever have a natural home for the geckos if I always have to worry about this parasite. Mike > > From: Neil Meister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2004/03/09 Tue AM 12:53:16 EST > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [gecko]quarantine U. ebenaui (update) > > Hi Mike, > > A sulfa drug makes sense. Just curious, how often are you supposed to > treat the geckos? > Coccidia often comes back after short treatments with Albon. Some > species can apparently > encyst in the intestinal wall and reappear down the road. It's not > usually fatal of itself, > but with delicate gex it's just one more straw on the camel's back. > I've brought back animals > that looked simply awful and others with low levels of coccidia and > in good health can sometimes > be acclimated without treatment. Since you've had vomiting, it's > definitely worth medicating. > > Normally wild geckos don't constantly come in contact with their own waste, the > coccidia don't get out of control. In shipping, warehousing and the > terrarium they can be > repeatedly exposed to oocysts (sort of an "egg"). The oocysts can > remain in the > environment for long periods, so the cleaning is really important to > prevent another > outbreak. Very high heat is supposed to kill coccidia, kind of hard > on geckos and plastic > vivaria though ; ) > > Neil > > > > > >Thanks, Julie and Neil. Well from a web search it seems Novotrimel > >contains sulfamethoxazole. The geckos don't appear to have runny > >stool. Their stool actually seems to have been hardening up in the > >past week so I suppose that is a good sign. I do have them > >alternating between two Tupperware containers as you said. I am also > >using short lengths of PVC pipe as shelters because these are easy > >to clean and the bathroom rolls are really messy when they get wet. > >I just soak them in the bleach solution in the containers. > > > >Well, Neil, your prognosis sounds grim if even bleach can't kill it > ><insert worry here>. I suppose if it's a common bug the geckos > >should turn out all right. And as Julie said, it hasn't killed her > >lizards so I hope it won't kill mine. So am I to assume that the > >geckos' immune systems themselves can kill the parasites, or is this > >just a bug that they will always live with and will recur if the > >geckos are stressed? I think keeping them in a Tupperware box seems > >really stressful in itself ;o) > > > >I will keep you updated. > > > >Mike > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Neil A. Meister > >To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 2:46 PM > >Subject: Re: [gecko]quarantine U. ebenaui (update) > > > >Hi Mike, > > > >This very common, especially in wc Uroplatus. Some animals never > >show symptoms, > >other have runny stool, become lethargic and waste away. The level > >of coccidia and stress > >are two important factors. > > > >Strict hygiene is important. I use only disposable materials in the > >cage and clean completely > >daily. Having two cages so you can move the geckos into one and > >clean the other is a good idea. > >I haven't found anything gecko-safe that can kill the oocysts (even > >bleach doesn't work), so > >thorough cleaning and rinsing is the best you can do. Be careful so > >to spread it to any other > >herps you may have. > > > >I'm not familiar with Novotrimel, do you know the active ingredients > >are. Do any vets on the > >list use it? I've used Albon (sulfadimethoxine) many times for this. > >Treatment was anywhere > >from 9 to 12 days. Even if coccidia wasn't eliminated, it was > >greatly reduced and most animals > >recovered. > > > >Good luck, > >Neil > > > >>I took the geckos into the vet on Friday and the vet said they > >>looked good. They've been eating as well (with no vomiting) so I > >>was quite happy. I got the call today that the fecal test test > >>results came back and my geckos have Eimeria spp. oocysts > >>(coccidia) so now I have to medicate them. Poor things. The drug is > >>Novotrimel. He wants to see another fecal 3 weeks from the end of > >>the medication. I suppose this means I'll have to throw away all my > >>fancy plants that I was using for the vivarium. But I wouldn't want > >>to risk reinfection. > >> > > > > > >Anyway, that's the update. I'm not really sure what coccidia does to > >geckos but it seems to be a bad thing in poultry livestock. > > > > > > > >Mike > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Neil A. Meister > > > >To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:10 AM > > > >Subject: Re: [gecko]how do I quarantine LTC U. ebenaui > > > > > >Hi Mike, > > > > > >Quarantine for LTC is the same as for WC. It is definitely worth > >finding out what the problem > > > >is before treating as the wrong meds will do no good and stress a > >weakened animal. > > > >How long is LTC in this case? > > > > > >What you're seeing is not uncommon. I suspect protozoa of some sort, > >coccidia is the most common > > > >problem. If your gecko is vomiting, it does need help. Keep > >collecting fecal samples in case > > > >the first one is negative. Repeat fecals at least 3 times if > >negative to be sure nothing > > > >is missed. One negative only means there was nothing found in that > >particular sample, > > > >no that the gecko is free of parasites. > > > > > >your temperatures are a little cool. 60's is good for night, but a > >few degrees warmer (72-76) > > > >is better for day temps. A weak basking light placed over a cork > >tube or similar hide spot > > > >should work in your situation. > > > > > >I quarantine small Uros in critter keepers or tall rubbermaids that > >are easily washed and rinsed. > > > >Bedding is paper towel (brown if you can get it) with a few bits of > >dried leaves or moss > > > >on top. Add a few climbing branches and a papertowel tube for > >hiding. Clean out feces daily. > > > >If you find parasites, cleaning will have to be more rigorous. > >Having two similar cages set up > > > >so you can move the geckos to a clean one while disinfecting the > >other is a good idea. > > > > > >Mist 2-3 times per day and cover part of the lid with a piece of > >plastic to keep in humidity > > > >if required. > > > > > >Do not use vermiculite for a substrate. It could be ingested when > >the geckos lunge at prey. > > > > > >I'm not crazy about using more than one med at a time. I like to use > >one, wait a few days, then use > > > >the other if more than one is necessary. Definitely get a vet > >opinion if you have to medicate. > > > > > >Good luck, > > > >Neil > > > > > > > > > >>Let me first apologize if this is long-winded. > >> > > > > > > > >Late last week I picked up a pair of LTC Uroplatus. After reading > >about care of recent imports I got the general idea that people > >didn't like to medicate their geckos for no reason and since I > >didn't have a fecal sample I wasn't in a rush to call the vet for > >debugging meds. > > > > > > > > > >The evening after I brought them home they ate. The evening after > >that, they ate again. This was obviously a good sign but the > >crickets I was feeding them, although appearing small when I put > >them in the enclosure, were sort of big for the geckos (1/2-3/4" > >crix, 4" geckos). It's been 3 days since they ate but they still go > >into hunting pose when they see crickets. They just don't strike. > > > > > > > > > > > >Today I found two crickets vomited up (2 crickets in the same vomit > >so from one gecko). The other gecko passed feces and I collected > >this for the vet for tomorrow <crosses fingers that he's there>. I > >took both geckos out of the enclosure and let them walk on my hands > >so I could examine them. The male looks decent enough but the female > >seems "ribby"; not tremendously, but ribby nonetheless. Her pelvis > >seems boney, too. She was the one that vomited. They jump around > >from hand to hand, though. > > > > > > > > > >I might also mention that the temperature in the enclosure is mid to > >high 60's. I don't know if this is a problem. A friend suggested I > >use a small red bulb to bring the heat up to the low 70's but I'm > >afraid to try that. I also thought about a low temperature heat tape > >but that also scares me a bit :o) Come summer, I know the > >temperature will be perfect. > > > > > > > > > >SO, I now want to quarantine these geckos in a "sterile" environment > >so I can closely monitor them and collect clean fecal samples if I > >need to. What I would like to know is, how can I create such an > >environment? Sterile enclosures are generally dry, IME. Would > >something like moist vermiculite be a good bedding with a few > >plastic branches for the geckos to climp on? How do other Uroplatus > >keepers quarantine their animals? > > > > > > > > > >Thank for any help or suggestions. I'll suggest Flagyl and Panacur > >to the vet for a debugging regimen and see what he says. That seems > >to be the general method. > > > > > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > >-- > > > >Neil Meister > > > >Promotions Secretary > >Global Gecko Association > > > >http://www.gekkota.com > > > >http://www.gekkota.com/html/gecko_night_2002.html > > > >President > >Nova Scotia Herpetoculture Society > > > >http://users.eastlink.ca/~nshs > > > > > > > >-- > >Neil Meister > > > >Promotions Secretary > >Global Gecko Association > >http://www.gekkota.com > >http://www.gekkota.com/html/gecko_night_2002.html > > > >President > >Nova Scotia Herpetoculture Society > >http://users.eastlink.ca/~nshs > > > -- > Neil Meister > Semaphor Design Company Inc. > 6450 Young Street, Suite 4 > Halifax, NS B3L 2A3 > Canada > 902.455.0133 ext 4 > > 1 _______________________________________________ Global Gecko Association http://www.gekkota.com Classifieds http://www.gekkota.com/cgi-gekkota/classifieds.cgi gecko mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.gekkota.com/mailman/listinfo/gecko
