My thoughts exactly. From, Emily
On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 9:47 PM, Kevin Gorman <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi John - > > I'm tired so I could have just missed someting, but I'm not not really > sure how you got your post out of Emily's post, or for that matter, out of > the rest of the thread. A discussion about archaic gendered terminology > (and face it, aviatrix is archaic) is not an attempt to define all genders > as the same, and equally, it is not an attempt to invalidate anyone's > gender identity. Invalidating someone's gender identity is a very serious > problem; please don't suggest that someone has done so without very clearly > explaining what you mean. (And by serious problem, I mean that if I see a > situation occur on this list where I honestly feel that someone is > attempting to invalidate someone else's gender identity, things are going > to go BOOM.) > > Thanks, > Kevin Gorman > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 8:05 PM, john allyn <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Somehow you appear to think that equality and sameness are synonymous. It >> is not possible to close the gender gap by defining male and female as the >> same. This kind of thinking will drive the wedge deeper because each will >> be invalidated for who they are. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* "[email protected]" < >> [email protected]> >> *To:* [email protected] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 17, 2013 6:00 AM >> *Subject:* Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 10 >> >> Send Gendergap mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Gendergap digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 (john allyn) >> 2. Re: Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 (Emily Monroe) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 14:21:07 -0700 (PDT) >> From: john allyn <[email protected]> >> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 >> Message-ID: >> <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Somehow you appear to think that equality and sameness are synonymous. It >> is not possible to close the gender gap by defining male and female as the >> same. This kind of thinking will drive the wedge deeper because each will >> be invalidated for who they are. >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "[email protected]" < >> [email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 6:00 AM >> Subject: Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 >> >> >> Send Gendergap mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Gendergap digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Archaic gendered terminology (Lane Rasberry) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 15:43:47 -0400 >> From: Lane Rasberry <[email protected]> >> To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the >> participation of women within Wikimedia projects." >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Archaic gendered terminology >> Message-ID: >> <cajb6kh5slckco9bfb4lhjcf+njkacmno6xnk+mk0ehkuaez...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Hello, >> >> I expect that many people will continue to use the term "actress" for >> females in the profession. I notice that the Amy Johnson discussion raises >> that. >> >> A couple of years ago I got to review an elementary English textbook being >> distributed in very large numbers in North India. It was an original work >> seemingly derived from public domain content and had a section on gendered >> nouns, including "negro" and "negress". I looked at the time for a style >> guide on best practices for gendered term and I could not find anything >> clear when I looked then, but obviously there is bad information to be >> found online among the public domain texts and it really grated on me that >> new print works were being distributed to teach children such things. >> >> We might not be so far from the day when someone could publish a Wikipedia >> Manual of Style and expect it to be an authoritative text. I am not sure >> what the right answer is in this case but whatever you find please >> consider >> noting on the manual of style because this question will come up again. >> >> Thanks for sharing. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Gobonobo <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > I've been going through a lot of historical biographies lately and am >> > surprised to see how often archaic gendered terms such as poetess, >> > sculptress, and aviatrix crop up in Wikipedia articles. I know some of >> > these come from the older sources such as the 1911 Britannica, but in >> other >> > cases their inclusion is the result of decisions being made by editors. >> > There's currently a discussion on [[Talk:Amy Johnson]] over whether she >> > should be referred to as an aviatrix, for instance. >> > >> > I'm wondering how this has been dealt with previously and if there are >> > specific policies surrounding such uses. I've found the essays >> > [[Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language]] and [[Wikipedia:Use modern >> language]] >> > and note that [[WP:MOS]] says "use gender-neutral language where this >> can >> > be done with clarity and precision". It seems as if despite these fairly >> > clear precepts, the use of these terms persists. >> > >> > Are there any archaic terms where it has been broadly agreed that using >> > them is not encyclopedic? I would be much obliged if anyone could point >> me >> > to previous discussions about this. >> > >> > ~Gobonobo >> > >> > ______________________________**_________________ >> > Gendergap mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/gendergap< >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap> >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Lane Rasberry >> 206.801.0814 >> [email protected] >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20130915/e13270c7/attachment-0001.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gendergap mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> >> >> End of Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 >> **************************************** >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20130916/e7e27c82/attachment-0001.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 17:57:21 -0500 >> From: Emily Monroe <[email protected]> >> To: john allyn <[email protected]>, "Addressing gender equity and >> exploring ways to increase the participation of women within >> Wikimedia >> projects." <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 >> Message-ID: >> <cadont8sze7zkpscbj9mn3wedncaxbmgynbsgspqu4g-e4u4...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I'm not sure how anybody implied that males and females are the same. The >> fact is,"-tress" words are becoming archiac, and Wikipedia needs to >> reflect >> that. >> >> On Monday, September 16, 2013, john allyn wrote: >> >> > Somehow you appear to think that equality and sameness are synonymous. >> It >> > is not possible to close the gender gap by defining male and female as >> the >> > same. This kind of thinking will drive the wedge deeper because each >> will >> > be invalidated for who they are. >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > *From:* "[email protected] <javascript:_e({}, >> > 'cvml', '[email protected]');>" < >> > [email protected] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >> > '[email protected]');>> >> > *To:* [email protected] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >> > '[email protected]');> >> > *Sent:* Monday, September 16, 2013 6:00 AM >> > *Subject:* Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 >> > >> > Send Gendergap mailing list submissions to >> > [email protected] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >> > '[email protected]');> >> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> > [email protected] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >> > '[email protected]');> >> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > [email protected] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >> > '[email protected]');> >> > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> > than "Re: Contents of Gendergap digest..." >> > >> > >> > Today's Topics: >> > >> > 1. Re: Archaic gendered terminology (Lane Rasberry) >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 15:43:47 -0400 >> > From: Lane Rasberry <[email protected] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >> > '[email protected]');>> >> > To: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the >> > participation of women within Wikimedia projects." >> > <[email protected] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >> > '[email protected]');>> >> > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Archaic gendered terminology >> > Message-ID: >> > >> > <cajb6kh5slckco9bfb4lhjcf+njkacmno6xnk+mk0ehkuaez...@mail.gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, >> 'cvml', '[email protected]');> >> > > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> > >> > Hello, >> > >> > I expect that many people will continue to use the term "actress" for >> > females in the profession. I notice that the Amy Johnson discussion >> raises >> > that. >> > >> > A couple of years ago I got to review an elementary English textbook >> being >> > distributed in very large numbers in North India. It was an original >> work >> > seemingly derived from public domain content and had a section on >> gendered >> > nouns, including "negro" and "negress". I looked at the time for a style >> > guide on best practices for gendered term and I could not find anything >> > clear when I looked then, but obviously there is bad information to be >> > found online among the public domain texts and it really grated on me >> that >> > new print works were being distributed to teach children such things. >> > >> > We might not be so far from the day when someone could publish a >> Wikipedia >> > Manual of Style and expect it to be an authoritative text. I am not sure >> > what the right answer is in this case but whatever you find please >> consider >> > noting on the manual of style because this question will come up again. >> > >> > Thanks for sharing. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Gobonobo >> > <[email protected]<javascript:_e({}, >> 'cvml', '[email protected]');>> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > I've been going through a lot of historical biographies lately and am >> > > surprised to see how often archaic gendered terms such as poetess, >> > > sculptress, and aviatrix crop up in Wikipedia articles. I know some of >> > > these come from the older sources such as the 1911 Britannica, but in >> > other >> > > cases their inclusion is the result of decisions being made by >> editors. >> > > There's currently a discussion on [[Talk:Amy Johnson]] over whether >> she >> > > should be referred to as an aviatrix, for instance. >> > > >> > > I'm wondering how this has been dealt with previously and if there are >> > > specific policies surrounding such uses. I've found the essays >> > > [[Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language]] and [[Wikipedia:Use modern >> > language]] >> > > and note that [[WP:MOS]] says "use gender-neutral language where this >> can >> > > be done with clarity and precision". It seems as if despite these >> fairly >> > > clear precepts, the use of these terms persists. >> > > >> > > Are there any archaic terms where it has been broadly agreed that >> using >> > > them is not encyclopedic? I would be much obliged if anyone could >> point >> > me >> > > to previous discussions about this. >> > > >> > > ~Gobonobo >> > > >> > > ______________________________**_________________ >> > > Gendergap mailing list >> > > [email protected] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >> > '[email protected]');> >> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/gendergap< >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap> >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Lane Rasberry >> > 206.801.0814 >> > [email protected] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >> > '[email protected]');> >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > URL: < >> > >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20130915/e13270c7/attachment-0001.html >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Gendergap mailing list >> > [email protected] <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >> > '[email protected]');> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> > >> > >> > End of Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 9 >> > **************************************** >> > >> > >> > >> >> -- >> From, >> Emily >> >> Sent from my iPad >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20130916/2dad0315/attachment-0001.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gendergap mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> >> >> End of Gendergap Digest, Vol 32, Issue 10 >> ***************************************** >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gendergap mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > >
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