What symbol is used for a primitive or whatever is not that important as practice reading them makes them readable. Got half-way decent at reading hearts and radicals with STSC's PC/APL before I got the APL character chip for the video board.
On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 11:27 AM, R.E. Boss <[email protected]> wrote: > Agree completely, as far as J and APl is concerned (since I know nothing > about Arabic or Persian). > > > R.E. Boss > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > Namens Matthew Brand > Verzonden: zondag 15 maart 2009 14:15 > Aan: General forum > Onderwerp: Re: [Jgeneral] Teaching > > I don't want to be a killjoy here and do not want to dissuade > anybody's efforts but sometimes that cannot be avoided so I will just > say it ... I think the idea of introducing graphical characters into J > is a bad one and that energy towards getting new users into J would be > better spent elsewhere like writing Labs. > > I am happy with the ascii characters and do not think that it would be > easier to teach J simply by changing to similarly unfamiliar (to > non-APL programmers, which the learners would be) graphical > characters. > > Changing the characters will not change the beauty or difficulty or > ease of the structure of the language, although it will make it more > difficult to use and communicate, it will just change what it looks > like. > > For example, the Arabic language has a certain beauty in its use of > the three letter root word construction and the various > prefixes/suffixes to change case etc... > > That structural beauty is still present and is the same if you > learn/write it in Latin characters. It looks more beautiful in the > Persian script, but that is just my opinion ... someone who has not > learnt that script may think the language is easier in the Latin > script. > > It is just my opinion, and perhaps can only ever be a matter of > opinion, but if you want to learn Arabic then you should learn the > Persian script, if you want the learn English then you should learn > the Latin script, if you want the learn APL then you should learn the > APL glyphs and if you want to learn J then you should learn the ascii. > You should avoid writing Arabic in the Latin script and writing > English in the Persian script (except for borrowed words) and the same > goes for J and APL. > > Obviously I am not against anybody making a version of J that has got > a graphical character layer, I mean I am just a user/learner of J so > can/would not stop it even if I wanted to, and I wish everybody luck > and success in their pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, but the > more I think about it the more I personally like the ascii method, > despite it deceptively appearing as an ugly mess when first > encountered, because once you get used to it is beautiful. > > Matthew. > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> > wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Don Watson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I also changed my table for translating u. or u: primitives into a > >> single meaningful primitive. Last time I was assuming that the monadic > form > >> and the dyadic form had to have the same symbol. That led to a real mess > for > >> a couple of primitives trying to look like both. However, the system > knows > >> from the context whether the primitive is monadic or dyadic. Where > >> necessary, it can have a different symbol for each. A new table is at: > >> > >> http://www.bcompanion.com/EquivalentSymbols > >> > >> Comments would be helpful on these symbols. I am trying to improve in > >> response to your comments. > > > > I have installed microsoft's word viewer so I can read this properly. > > > > I have only one comment: > > > > The first example in your table became " " when I try copying > > and pasting it into this message. > > > > This means you have not even begun to tackle the hard problem of > > figuring out how this kind of thing could even be possible. > > > > That said, as a sketch... well... it looks like a sketch. It has > > some inviting possibilities. But I really have nothing useful > > to say because I can not distinguish any problems but the > > largest problem from a sketch. And I believe I have already > > identified the largest problem. > > > > Once you have identified characters we could perhaps look at > > whether those characters are well supported and whether the > > look wrong in some fonts and so on. > > > > I know you are attempting to circumvent the "can not type them > > reliably" problem by saying that people will type something else > > which J will convert to these characters. I think this will make > > them hard to learn though -- it would basically be the same > > approach as LaTeX, so why not just use LaTeX for that? > > (Well, LaTeX allows too many possibilities and has too small > > of an audience and can be hard for an eager potential new > > programmer to install and get working). > > > > But anyways, I do not think we can ignore the keyboarding > > and communications problems -- today's new scheme/proposal > > would have issues with learning which can perhaps be solved but > > hopefully even if we had a system designed on the "I type E and > > I get Everything" principle we would still be able to copy and > > paste our program text into email messages and mail them > > and hopefully our readers would be able to see and manipulate > > what we wrote without having to have installed special software. > > > > Anything else, I think, sets the bar too high, for most new > > programmers. > > > > Thanks, > > > > -- > > Raul > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > > > > -- > http://www.ixquick.com/ > > Ixquick Protects Your Privacy! > The only search engine that does not record your IP address. > > http://www.vivapalestina.org/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
