If it's going to be a menu item in Mac but not in Windows or Linux versions then that creates even more user interface diversity, fragmenting our small community even more.
My preference would be for a menu item in all Gtk versions, failing that in none. On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 3:08 PM, bill lam <[email protected]> wrote: > I'm not a mac afficionados and not even a mac user to comprehend why this > is a big deal or that apple interface guideline should be regarded as a > doctrine. (_no_ depreciation intended here.) Since you already worked out a > simple way to make it conform to that guideline, an option would be > to incorporate into mainline with additional conditional code making it > only relevant in mac, such as > if. UNAME-:'Darwin' do. > create_menu_sep con > con ccmenu 'runadvancelab' > end. > > otherwise mac afficionados would need to patch every time after updating > gtkide from pacman. > > btw, afficionados - sounds like esperanto? > > @Chris, what will be your opinion? > > Втр, 22 Фев 2011, Ian Clark писал(а): >> > I realize that your email was a rant, meant to express frustration and not >> > necessarily logic or facts, >> >> Haha. >> >> ...But there were a *few* facts lurking in my rant, plus a smidgeon of logic. >> So go on, fault me on one or the other. >> >> > the CTRL key predated both Windows and Mac OSes by quite some time. >> >> Oh yes... it predates computers. >> >> I remember it on the old tty. It had one use and one use only: to >> enter a "control" char: NUL, SOH, STX, ETX,... >> which it did by grounding a line or two, if memory serves. >> >> The original Mac "toaster" did not have a Control key. See: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Apple_Macintosh_Plus_Keyboard.jpg >> (...that's the Option key you see next to the Command key.) >> That was deliberate: to enforce the Mac gui paradigm. >> >> A lost cause, if ever there was one. >> (@Apple: do you want to sell your machines, or don't you?) >> >> Excellent histories of the Command and Control keys on modern >> computers can be found at: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_Key >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_key >> >> But the keyboard on my Macintosh II (which I bought to replace my Mac >> 512k, which quite literally toasted itself -- the power-unit was >> absurdly underpowered) certainly did have a Control key. By then the >> Mac had a good repertoire of apps, and M$ was in open conflict with >> Apple over "look 'n' feel". >> >> Since then the usage of Command and Control keys, along with all >> modifiers, has become capricious. >> (...Oh I know developers won't say that: they'll say their usage >> follows Iron Rules of Pure Logic -- to hell with whatever anyone else >> does.) >> >> But this caprice has not been to the benefit of novice users. >> ...If there still are any. >> ...Who matter. >> >> > As Chris B. already replied, any of us, individually or collectively, can >> > customize JHS as we like... >> >> (I'll assume you meant JGTK...) >> >> Oh yes. J602 and J701 are beatifully soft apps. The code which governs >> the JGTK menus is in '~addons/ide/gtk/gtk.ijs' -which you can readily >> find by Spotlighting the text of a menu item, such as: Run Project >> >> That done, a four-year old could hack it, to come up with what I offer >> as my suggestion: >> http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Interfaces/GTK/AdvanceLabMac >> >> ...but all this is a long way from the pure land of novice support. >> >> That said, why *should* JGTK make any concession to the novice? As >> Chris implies, its primary audience is developers wishing to employ >> GTK in their product. Not novices. Ergo the availability of labs on >> JGTK is just a bonus. >> >> I said "I don't know if anyone's listening". But I could have said it >> kinder. Or it could have been thrown right back at me... Why *should* >> anyone be listening? JGTK is an interface on the Mac for GTK >> afficionados. That's its central audience. It need have no special >> appeal to Mr Average Mac User coming new to J. >> >> (As indeed it doesn't.) >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 7:43 AM, Alan K. Stebbens <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> < Rant> ... >> >> Ctrl in Windows is (usually) the counterpart of Cmnd (⌘) on the Mac. >> >> But nowadays Mac keyboards offer a Ctrl key also, as a concession to >> >> ex-Windows customers (...growing) -- particularly users of M$Word, >> > >> > Ian, >> > >> > I realize that your email was a rant, meant to express frustration and not >> > necessarily logic or facts, but I also feel the need to set the record >> > straight: in that the CTRL key predated both Windows and Mac OSes by quite >> > some time. >> > >> > For example, running WordPerfect on a CP/M system required a fairly strong >> > left "pinky" because most of the editing was done with the CTRL key being >> > pressed semi-contantly. >> > >> > Furthermore, even while MS-DOS was the primary OS for large, clunky >> > desktops, the CTRL key was very much in use on BSD 4.2 Unix at the very >> > least for line editing (e.g., CTRL-C, CTRL-U, CTRL-\, CTRL-Z), and was >> > widely available at most colleges and universities. >> > >> > IMHO, the Mac OS X support of the CTRL key is (was) not a concession to >> > Windows, but rather a simple recognition the Terminal app users on Mac OS >> > X (which is really a Unix system), as well as the users of the larger >> > non-Mac OS world, which increasingly included other Unix variants as well >> > as Windows systems absolutely require the CTRL key, at the very least for >> > command line editing. >> > >> >> which has been re-ported to the Mac with little or no understanding of >> >> novice needs. There's no good reason for a novice ever to buy M$Word: >> >> the kludge is aimed at an existing audience. >> > >> > I'm no MS fanboy, but you should know that 2011 MSWord is actually a >> > decent Mac app port. The 2004 MSWord was .. okay ..; the 2008 MSWord was >> > terrible. >> > >> >> But on the Mac: Ctrl+J to advance a Lab is Ctrl+J in JGTK not ⌘J ...it >> >> appears to be the sole exception to the "rule" Ctrl+ --> ⌘ . >> > >> > As Chris B. already replied, any of us, individually or collectively, can >> > customize JHS as we like. However, I do believe that there is a benefit >> > to having the "out of box" experience be as intuitive as possible. >> > >> > As Joey said in a later email, CTRL-J to advance a Lab seems perfectly >> > fine to me, and somewhat mnemonic. >> > >> >> I'd have pointed this out before but I don't know if anyone's >> >> listening. (How many Mac users are there on this list? Four?) >> >> </ Rant > >> > >> > Count++ me as a Mac user too. Since serial number 300 of the original Mac >> > line. But, I was also chained to a Windows XP laptop for 6 years, as part >> > of long visit with Dante in the Inferno. >> > >> > -- >> > Alan >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > -- > regards, > ==================================================== > GPG key 1024D/4434BAB3 2008-08-24 > gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv-keys 4434BAB3 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
