On 10/20/2013 02:37 AM, Samuli Suominen wrote: > > On 20/10/13 09:34, Daniel Campbell wrote: >> On 10/19/2013 06:35 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: >>> Am 19.10.2013 17:02, schrieb Daniel Campbell: >>>> On 10/17/2013 11:27 PM, Mark David Dumlao wrote: >>>>> https://www.linux.com/news/featured-blogs/200-libby-clark/733595-all-about-the-linux-kernel-cgroups-redesign >>>>> >>>>> Not sure if I read that just right... but since nobody is doing cgroup >>>>> management besides systemd, in practice the cgroups implementation in >>>>> Linux wasn't very consistent. So since systemd is doing it, their work >>>>> is helping shape the kernel's cgroups api? >>>>> >>>>> Interesting... >>>>> >>>> >From my perspective it looks like systemd developers are trying to push >>>> their ideas into the kernel, almost like they intend to merge systemd >>>> *with* the kernel. >>> from what I read in the article cgroups are a mess and are cleaned up >>> anyway. The only real user of cgroups at the moment is systemd. >>> Others are welcome to make use of cgroups too. But in the current state >>> nobody blames them for not jumping in. >> No complaints here in improving something, but consider the source is >> all I'm saying. >> >>>> If systemd is the only implementation of cgroups and >>>> their developers are working on cgroup support in the kernel, it spells >>>> calamity given their history of evangelism and zealotry. >>> well, going over some old ml threads on fedora mailing lists all I could >>> find was that Poettering and Sievers DID listen and DID make changes if >>> the demand was high enough. >>> >>> Sure, I dislike systemd. Sure what happened with udev was a dick move. >>> But their 'zealotry' is a lot less developed than the zealotry of those >>> who exploded about using an 'init-thingy' in the future. >>> >> I'd say their zealotry is less loud and more persistent. Their way is >> best, UNIX (and its philosophy) is outmoded, people are thinking 30 >> years behind where we are, etc etc etc. Those who have separate /usr and >> blame systemd for pushing them to use an initramfs aren't seeing the >> real problem (upstreams not putting things where they belong, FHS no >> longer *really* being worked on, generally just the filesystem being >> played with like a toy) >> >>>> I truly wish I understood why a single userland program and its >>>> developers are being given the keys to an entire subsystem of the >>>> kernel. >>> they aren't. >> Of the people who have committed to the cgroup subsystem of the kernel, >> how many are not members of the systemd, GNOME, or Red Hat projects? >> I'll let that speak for itself. >> >>>> Their changes to udev have proven to be a headache for users, >>> yes? which ones? >> Persistent NIC naming, for starters. The former maintainer's idea to >> merge with systemd (which was influenced by Mr. Poettering in the first >> place) when the two are completely separate pieces of software that do >> two completely different jobs, and various other troubles with udev > >> 175 that one can Google for and find tons of results. > > I can't find anything that would be true. Can you point out some? > A lot of FUD[1] and outright lies coming from people, who, for example, > don't like systemd. > > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt > > I know for a fact udev-208 is a full replacement for udev-171 in terms > that both work on same kernels, same libcs, and so forth. That's why > 171 is no longer in Portage, because it's completely useless from users > (and developers) point of view. > > Adjusting some configs and enabling some kernel options that have been > around for a long time is just part of normal maintenance process, > that's what we have admins for. >
Do you know the design consequences of opt-in versus opt-out? I'll keep this short: When evolving a codebase, new behavior for core parts of the system should not be pushed or forced on users. If you must, keep the old behavior around as a default and allow users to try the new thing by explicitly opting in. The new naming in whichever udev started the mess did it the exact opposite (and wrong) way. While editing and updating configs is a normal part of system maintenance, turning a system on its head and screwing it out of network accessibility until the new default is reversed (by means of a `kernel` line in GRUB, requiring a reboot) is straight-up wrong design. Conversely, keeping old behavior, even for systems that *do* have multiple NICs, will at least be functional (for one of the NICs, anyway) until they set the option to get their expected behavior sorted out. Multi-NIC systems are less common than single-NIC systems, and that alone should've been enough motivation to leave old behavior as default, with the new behavior a simple config switch away. The way the new behavior was introduced may have led users of single-NIC systems to believe that the old way was broken, when as demonstrated through past use, works *just fine* for single-NIC machines. It was *multi-NIC* use that wasn't as predictive and needed the fix, not *single*. It's basically using poor design/defaults decisions to smear existing technology dishonestly. Technical propaganda, so to speak. My beef with that decision is separate from my disdain for the decision to merge it with systemd, which is only mildly related to why I dislike systemd, but that's irrelevant. As for FUD, I see no reason to get personal. If you insist, we can take a look at which Gentoo package(s) you maintain that are related to the topic and ask ourselves if you are any less biased. --- Getting back to the original topic, cgroups sound like a pretty neat idea that other init systems could benefit from. If the systemd guys are willing to work on that subsystem for themselves, are they also interested in seeing what other init systems would want from cgroups? Certainly there's more room for development and/or standardization on an API instead of a single project having all the influence. I think their presence and activity with cgroups could be beneficial if policed by another init system project that's not trying to infect every Linux distro. tldr version: opt-out design is bad, the accusation of FUD is moot since you maintain udev for Gentoo, and I think work on cgroups (by systemd people) could be good if they're not the only people working on it and calling the shots.
